OB, def and damage

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OB, def and damage

Postby science on Tue May 12, 2009 7:23 pm

I've of late been frustrated with the over-powered seemingness of 2-3 orcs with warswords wandering arda killing people in a few hits. They must know something I don't...

Say i have def of 130. And they have an OB of (generously) 150. Warsword does 18 damage, so 1 'extreme' hit from them will do 18 damage? Or 25? Seems like often more than 18.

Say I'm aggressive, so my def is only 70. Then they'll do 35 damage?

Say I have a def of 160. Will they miss often? Or only lightly hit me?

How high of an OB would a smiting level 70 orc get around ford? 160? 180? How much more damage is a hit from ob 180 than 160? Is there a max effectiveness, or damage per hit?

I'm not considering armor.. I know that that's mostly based on the first 13 damage, so anything above that goes right through it.


Also, any suggested strategies for dealing with 3 smiting high level warriors? Say you get 5 good guys, but they have a faster link so quaking probably won't work well. And the warriors will always hit/flee your elves first.
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Re: OB, def and damage

Postby Elestir on Wed May 13, 2009 1:29 am

science wrote:Warsword does 18 damage, so 1 'extreme' hit from them will do 18 damage?

"Extremely hard" means 18+ damage. Yes, warsword is like 18.4 damage if you identify it, but these units do not mean hps. High level smiter orc with parry split (e.g. like the group of 3 smiting orcs you mentioned) can occasionally smite you for 60+ hps, and with war mattock even for more if you wear metal on that bodypart.
Your defence lowers the max they can do, but with parry split, defence doesnt matter all that much (well the first smiter to engage you might hit you for less if you have defence or even miss you). Absorb matters more as defence was too randomized some time ago (shining metal is like -17 damage for every hit for example).

science wrote:Also, any suggested strategies for dealing with 3 smiting high level warriors? Say you get 5 good guys, but they have a faster link so quaking probably won't work well. And the warriors will always hit/flee your elves first.

Best strategy is sanc your warriors so they last longer than the smiters. Let warriors go aggressive to inflict as much damage vs smiters and let them protect the others. Also helps to chose primary target. Other strategies: fight in areas that prevent effective hit-flee (e.g. 1 room closables, hard-to-flee rooms, try to bash them when they fail flee). But yes, 3 smiters (and generally 3 high level warriors) doing hit-flee is often very effective if you can't sanc up vs them.
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Re: OB, def and damage

Postby science on Wed May 13, 2009 4:19 am

Thanks!

Aah, I have always been confused on the damage thing - what does the base damage mean then really? How does it get to be more than that amount?

Is fine chain actually better than metals vs. crushing like ornate warhammer or war mattock?


Thoughts then on DB vs. OB focus for pk as a warrior? Seems like everyone stays agg the whole time anyways? Though DB isn't as affected by parry split, so could still be useful?
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Re: OB, def and damage

Postby Elestir on Wed May 13, 2009 6:53 am

science wrote:Aah, I have always been confused on the damage thing - what does the base damage mean then really? How does it get to be more than that amount?

The base damage is only a coefficient used in actual damage formula. If one weapon has damage 9 and other has 18, you may conclude that vs unarmoured target, the 2nd will do double damage compared to the first, nothing more.

science wrote:Is fine chain actually better than metals vs. crushing like ornate warhammer or war mattock?

Depends. If the enemy is hitting you very hard, then it might be. Therefore vs war mattock chain might be better, vs cruely spiked mace probably not. Parry split and your defence are also very relevant here.

science wrote:Thoughts then on DB vs. OB focus for pk as a warrior? Seems like everyone stays agg the whole time anyways? Though DB isn't as affected by parry split, so could still be useful?

Depends on type of group you PK in and type of PK you are looking for in general. For average skirmishes 10db ring is much better, as it allows you to stay in fight longer and eventually survive. The 10ob ring on the other hand might help you finish the enemy bit more quickly (as you do slightly higher damage), especially if you have parry splitters.
I usually prefer 10db ring, as I am almost always leading and have to buf a lot. Often mobs are part of PK situations and high DB helps a lot vs mobiles. Yet I also usually carry ruby ring and swap from 10db to 5ob if I am pursuing wounded target or if I am fighting casters (when fighting bn groups, it's good idea to go even for leather gloves/fur/mantle). Then there is also possibility of focusing banded ring (8db 3ob or 3db 8ob on aggressive mood, 8db 1.8ob 1.2pb or 3db 4.8ob 3.2pb on wimpy mood).
Less experienced players should definitely go for the more defensive choice (10db ring or 8db 3ob one), as they will be fleeing more often than they will be pursuing wounded enemies and the loss in offense is not as big.
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Re: OB, def and damage

Postby science on Thu May 14, 2009 12:49 am

Thanks again for your awesome responses. I like you!
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Re: OB, def and damage

Postby Antti on Fri Jan 22, 2010 8:38 pm

I actually also like Elestir's attitude of sharing knowledge, being patient enough to answer to all kind of questions, and his endurance of explaining it long enough so that the other person gets it. Thanks, keep it going! : )
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Re: OB, def and damage

Postby Dearth on Mon Nov 22, 2010 2:34 am

Thanks Elestir, thorough answers! Keep it coming
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Re: OB, def and damage

Postby Kushnak on Sun Apr 03, 2011 6:41 pm

Well I have a question that is related to this a bit. How much does a character's str affect melee damage? From what I have gathered ob is what affects damage and not strength. Each strength only adds like 1 ob, yes? Seems like a waste of creation points to have more than what you need to wield your weapon unless you are just going for higher skill % on your warrior skills... Is this correct? Also, does wil affect ob directly at all or does it just affect it through skill % on conc/smite and cleave? Just wondering how to maximize ob/melee damage on a char basically.
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Re: OB, def and damage

Postby Chark on Thu Apr 07, 2011 6:08 pm

AFAIK every 5% increase in skill gives 1 ob. So 101 % skill and 104 % is same ob, but getting 105 % you would gain (only) 1 ob. I don't know how much it affects the damage.
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Re: OB, def and damage

Postby Dearth on Mon May 02, 2011 5:29 am

I am going to answer as far as I know. I am sure Elestir can come up with more comprehensive analysis of the formulas.

What is a fact is that for example str 20 orc will definately do more damage than str 18 orc, if both have the SAME % in weapon skill.

What is another fact is that higher OB definately does more damage than lower OB when Strength is the same.

Strength influences Ob directly very little, maybe 1 ob per 1 str(for example str ring). Main influence comes through practice %. What most people tend to do is not maximise weapon skills, especially on dark side. Thats because every 5% weaponskill/dodge/parry will give u 1 extra ob/db/pb. So a crude example is a torc warrior who can get 80% with 14 pracs in concussion but 95% in like 23. The difference is only 3 ob but the pracs spent is a huge amount of 9 pracs.

Willpower does not directly influence OB. Only through practice %.

To maximise melee damage I would maximise Strength and get as high OB as possible.

I would love to know if CON and WIL influence damage done directly. Like does a character with same Strength and same OB but different CON or WIL do the same damage?
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Re: OB, def and damage

Postby Wobbler on Mon May 02, 2011 5:36 pm

Strength is one factor in the damage calculation formula, so it has a very direct effect on damage dealt, apart from the indirect effects; it is not, however, as important as the weapon's damage factor.
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Re: OB, def and damage

Postby Elestir on Mon May 02, 2011 9:13 pm

Kushnak wrote:How much does a character's str affect melee damage? From what I have gathered ob is what affects damage and not strength. Each strength only adds like 1 ob, yes?

Not completely sure if STR affects damage directly (other than through the tiny ob bonus you described), but if it does, it will probably be as negligible as the ob bonus.

Kushnak wrote:Seems like a waste of creation points to have more than what you need to wield your weapon unless you are just going for higher skill % on your warrior skills... Is this correct?

Either higher % on warrior skill or conserving practice sessions is one possible benefit. But STR affects more than warrior skills. It is the primary stat for wilderness skill for example, it is very important when bashing doors (including bashing off blocks), it helps to reduce the encumbrance malus to your db, move cost, bash speed, fleeing, swimming, helps you to open those heavy delayed doors (where you need to reach certain limit) and special mudlled doors (such as Fornost portcullis), helps you to resist tentacles dragging attempts, and allows you to loot more stuff...

Kushnak wrote:Also, does wil affect ob directly at all or does it just affect it through skill % on conc/smite and cleave?

To my knowledge, only through skill %.
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Re: OB, def and damage

Postby Dearth on Mon May 02, 2011 9:39 pm

Not completely sure if STR affects damage directly (other than through the tiny ob bonus you described), but if it does, it will probably be as negligible as the ob bonus.


Are u saying that for example a strength 25 troll who has pracced concussion 90% with ~15 pracs will do exactly the same damage as strength 21 troll who has pracced concussion 90% with ~23 pracs? Because my experience so far tells me otherwise..
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Re: OB, def and damage

Postby Kushnak on Tue May 03, 2011 4:39 am

I think trolls do significantly more damage because of racial bonus. Could be wrong though... Thanks for the replies everyone! I have played warrior almost exclusively but still struggle to get stats I like on an orc... I want nice damage/bash, hps, moves, and at least 93% track. I know I have to sacrifice somewhere but its so hard to decide!

Edit: Elestir - Are you saying Str affects bash speed by reducing encumbrance or does it directly affect it? And If I get an orc with say 19 or 20 str instead of 18 will I really be able to bash down a puke block? Kushnak has str trained to 20 right now and he has never bashed down staffed puke block, even when the puke isn't guarding it... Unblocked doors seem to go down fairly easily even with 18 str though so I don't know how much of an advantage that is.
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Re: OB, def and damage

Postby Dearth on Tue May 03, 2011 5:35 am

Kushnak wrote:I think trolls do significantly more damage because of racial bonus.


My argument had nothing to do with trolls. My argument was that it seems to me that STR plays a part in damage formula. That's because different STR chars but same weapon % tend to do different damage.

Kushnak wrote: I want nice damage/bash, hps, moves, and at least 93% track.


I would recommend something like this Str:18 Int: 8 Wis: 6 Dex:14 Con:20 Wil:13 Per:15.
For my playing style that's perfect.

Kushnak wrote:Edit: Elestir - Are you saying Str affects bash speed by reducing encumbrance or does it directly affect it?


The direct impact of STR on bashing block is there but it is really hard to notice. A noticable difference will be like STR 21 troll and STR 25 troll.
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Re: OB, def and damage

Postby Elestir on Tue May 03, 2011 11:07 am

It's all speculations, but I believe Kushnak is right and the damage of trolls is affected more by racial bonus than by bonus from high STR. In this regard, I also believe zaugurz orcs have higher racial damage bonus than tarknarb orcs. But if you have some study where you compared let's say man's average damage with engraved broadsword with 13 STR and with 20 STR, present it...

As for bash speed, I believe the STR affects it only indirectly through encumbrance, while DEX affects it directly.

And regarding impact of STR on block, there is already significant difference between 18 STR and 20 STR when bashing regular doors. I believe higher STR also helps to make the door stay broken bit longer (most likely the door bash is internally converted into break door of some really low level, and this level is somewhat based on STR). To bash a block of powerful whitie casters somewhat reliably, really high STR (24+) is needed though. And again, it's also possible that trolls may be getting racial bonus to doorbashing, but I can only speculate...
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Re: OB, def and damage

Postby Chark on Tue May 03, 2011 12:50 pm

Also speculation, but maybe size of character affects bashing of doors. If not, it should IMO!
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Re: OB, def and damage

Postby Kushnak on Tue May 03, 2011 3:17 pm

@Dearth - If you find out how much strength affects damage or want to test in game let me know. I would love to know what significance it has in the damage calculation. Also, your stats remind me of another question. What is the point of maxing Con for base stats? It only slightly affects concussion/two handed and endurance for skill percent. I know you get higher regen rate for current con but does base affect anything other than the higher skill %? Seems better to start with say 19 con, then train to 20.

@Elestir - I didn't think about doors staying broken longer. Interesting idea.
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Re: OB, def and damage

Postby yutham on Tue May 03, 2011 6:08 pm

I just had to login to thank everyone for taking their time helping newlings and oldlings with answers to some questions:)
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Re: OB, def and damage

Postby Dearth on Tue May 03, 2011 8:39 pm

Kushnak wrote:Also, your stats remind me of another question. What is the point of maxing Con for base stats? It only slightly affects concussion/two handed and endurance for skill percent. I know you get higher regen rate for current con but does base affect anything other than the higher skill %? Seems better to start with say 19 con, then train to 20.


HPs
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