Request for troll (beginners') guide

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Request for troll (beginners') guide

Postby Triw on Thu Nov 12, 2009 2:47 am

So far only seen Goretongue's (http://home.earthlink.net/~jeremiahn/mlogs/trlhlp.html) which is helpful, but a more detailed guide would be appreciated by many I believe - some experienced troll might write one? :P
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Re: Request for troll (beginners') guide

Postby Ortansia on Fri Nov 13, 2009 9:15 am

Good idea :)
Well actually there are two types of trolls: Unarmed and weapon trolls
For my part, I can help writing unarmed troll guide since it is the class that I play most of the time :p.
anyway it is a good idea :)
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Re: Request for troll (beginners') guide

Postby Jahara on Fri Nov 13, 2009 4:36 pm

I would recommend to write the guide on the MUME wiki if anyone is up for it :-)
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Re: Request for troll (beginners') guide

Postby Triw on Fri Nov 13, 2009 10:19 pm

Ortansia wrote:Good idea :)
Well actually there are two types of trolls: Unarmed and weapon trolls
For my part, I can help writing unarmed troll guide since it is the class that I play most of the time :p.
anyway it is a good idea :)

If you're really up for it, (OR SOME ELSE EXPERIENCED TROLL AS WELL) maybe you could follow a scheme looking something like this:

Introduction (what unarmed trolls are about)
Stats (add several stat placements maybe, explain pros and cons of different stat placements)
Skills (when to prac what? what to prac? how much to prac? can an unarmed troll prac this-and-that? etc)
PK (anything you can think of that is worth of telling to a beginner troll, what to do & what not to do.)
Misc (gear. age. gear load spots for trolls etc.)

I think that the xp-section won't be needed really.

The whole guide (trolls in overall, not just unarmed now) eventually would consist of:

Whacking:
*unarmed
*armed
Tracking

I could help some myself too.
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Re: Request for troll (beginners') guide

Postby Andróg on Fri Nov 13, 2009 11:53 pm

If this project gets started then I need to poke Thurge into writing a chapter called "How to have fun with your troll while doing all sorts of stupid stuff!" :twisted:
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Re: Request for troll (beginners') guide

Postby Ortansia on Sat Nov 14, 2009 10:30 am

@Triw Good guide layout :p
Actually your help is welcome since Im not good at spelling/grammar

I still think we should make 2 sections , One for unarmed and the other for weapon because they are somehow different from each other
Unarmed troll can also be devided into 2 parts : Pure unarmed / Tracking unarmed
P(arx) was tracking unarmed and he was successful at it . He was indeed slow at tracking but it seems he managed well :p .
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Re: Request for troll (beginners') guide

Postby Triw on Sat Nov 14, 2009 11:20 pm

And for trolls in overall, maybe some useful scripts would be nice too.
Well, Ortansia, you could do as much as you know/can/can be arsed to and then I would just make it (if needed) (look) nicer.

Getting a nice plan put together as the first thing is a nice idea. :P
Troll guide

Introduction to trolls (some smart sentences about trolls :D)

Types of trolls:

*Whacking
Tracking/pure unarmed:

-Unarmed:
Stats (add several stat placements maybe, explain pros and cons of different stat placements)
Skills (when to prac what? what to prac? how much to prac? can a pure unarmed troll prac this-and-that? etc)
PK (Anything you can think of that is worth of telling to a [beginner] pure unarmed troll, what to do & what not to do.)
Misc (Anything you want to mention but doesn't fit under the previous categories)
-Tracking unarmed:
Stats (add several stat placements maybe, explain pros and cons of different stat placements)
Skills (When to prac what? What to prac? How much to prac? Can an unarmed tracking troll prac this-and-that? etc.)
PK (Anything you can think of that is worth of telling to a [beginner] unarmed tracking troll. What to do & what not to do.)
Misc (Anything you want to mention but doesn't fit under the previous categories)

Tracking/pure armed
: <<<<<<<--------------- Can you even be a tracking armed troll? Or is that simply a tracker? :P

-Pure armed:
Stats (add several stat placements maybe, explain pros and cons of different stat placements)
Skills (When to prac what? What to prac? How much to prac? Can a pure armed troll prac this-and-that? etc)
PK (Anything you can think of that is worth of telling to a [beginner] pure armed troll, what to do & what not to do.)
Misc (Anything you want to mention but doesn't fit under the previous categories)
-Tracking armed: <<<<<<<----------------- Look above :P
Stats (add several stat placements maybe, explain pros and cons of different stat placements)
Skills (When to prac what? What to prac? How much to prac? Can a tracking armed troll prac this-and-that? etc)
PK (Anything you can think of that is worth of telling to a [beginner] tracking armed troll, what to do & what not to do.)
Misc (Anything you want to mention but doesn't fit under the previous categories)

*Tracking

Stats (add several stat placements maybe, explain pros and cons of different stat placements)
Skills (When to prac what? What to prac? How much to prac? Can a pure armed troll prac this-and-that? etc)
PK (Anything you can think of that is worth of telling to a [beginner] pure armed troll, what to do & what not to do.)
Misc (Anything you want to mention but doesn't fit under the previous categories)
---
Misc (gear. age. gear load spots for trolls etc. useful scripts for trolls etc.)


Btw, I myself am a tracking unarmed troll/unarmed tracker too :P
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Re: Request for troll (beginners') guide

Postby science on Mon Nov 16, 2009 9:02 pm

If you write it and want someone to check grammar/spelling for you, just post back here with a link :) Proofreading is easy, content is hard!
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Re: Request for troll (beginners') guide

Postby Ortansia on Sat Nov 21, 2009 2:19 pm

I tried to write a little guide following the layout :p . It is still needs some polishing and some info ( particularly unarmed/tracking troll section)


Introduction to trolls

What I like in troll life is simplicity . You don't need equipement , You don't need to buy/sell stuffs,because There are no shops :p . All you need is fgc and smooth boots!
Troll device : easy come , easy go , That's to say you xp fast but on the other hand you can lose all levels if by misfortune you meet sun :p


Types of trolls:

1) unarmed TRoll:

A) Pure Unarmed:

Stats :

max str / Max cons /Max dex example : Str:25 Int: 6 Wis: 6 Dex:14 Con:22 Wil:10 Per: 8.


Skills :
practice in this order : max unarmed / get about 30to 35 bash /Max wilderness and / Max endurance /


Misc :

Fgc load spots : (helps with mps)

1.At Mrak mob : from brolg / say open w s w 5s 3e ( The Cracked Plains) open canyon d open rockwall n loot skeleton :)
2. BBT : From warren towers ( west warrens) : go 3s d all w 4s 3w, s, 2e, 3s, w open tangle
3. Wooden : some east RD open door ( be aware of elven hunters)

Smooth boot load spot: ( helps with mps)
From Warrens hatch : 7s 5 w 1 s loot skeleton

Cave bear fur load spot : ( increase OB)

4 w ford / Open hilltop and kill cave bear and Butcher it

Metal wall shield : It helps with troll defence "parry", it can be helpful for buffing many mobs or fleeing from many pukes ,
Note: wielding shield decrease your unarmed skill so use it only for buffing and when you assiste remember to remove it
It loads at filthy area , Kill large troll he loads key ( Be aware don't hit large troll at rent mob room because
all mobs will be aggressive to you

basic eq
( skin / leathers ) loads N of back exit brolg or south crusher


PK :
In my opinion hit flee is the key !
switch to cave bear fur for more OB . If you are low Hp . wield metal wall shield and go on wimpy mood
If you are a group of trolls , don't hit flee , just set up a target and smash :) . Unarmed in group do awesome damage :p




B) Tracking unarmed:

Stats get about 12 perc / about 9/10 intelligence and try balance between str/conc/ and will
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Re: Request for troll (beginners') guide

Postby Ortansia on Sat Nov 21, 2009 2:25 pm

Well it is still needs some polishing , Im not good at writing but maybe someone can take informations and rewrite all this
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Re: Request for troll (beginners') guide

Postby Mindy on Mon Nov 23, 2009 5:29 am

I could probably write up a pretty extensive guide to trolls especially how to make and play a weapons troll sometime next week. Question though is, do new players want this, or is this something experienced players "think" might be useful to newer ones. Basically if I was going to spend the time to write a lengthy response to everything about playing a troll from the ground up, I'd like to think that theres a demand for such a thing.
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Re: Request for troll (beginners') guide

Postby Ortansia on Mon Nov 23, 2009 4:55 pm

Actually , there is a demand for troll guide :p
There are many newbies trolls or even players who are somehow experienced but new to troll life who ask me questions like where Fgc loads or what should I prac as unarmed troll ... etc
I myself -being troll player - need a guide for weapon troll because I didn't try this class seriously :p and I don't know really how to play it

Anyway I think a guide would rock particularly that I see many people trying out trolls lately :p
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Re: Request for troll (beginners') guide

Postby Elestir on Tue Nov 24, 2009 12:07 pm

Few points to consider when chosing stats for troll:

  • STR will help you mostly with mobility (wilderness + encumbrance), door bashing and offensive bonus (unarmed, all weapon skills).
  • DEX will help you mostly with defence, bashing speed, fleeing speed, max move points and little with offensive bonus (unarmed, slashing, stabbing, cleaving).
  • CON will help you mostly with max hit points, hit point and move point regeneration and max move points.
  • WIL will help you mostly with spell save, mobility (wilderness), little with offensive bonus (unarmed, two-handed, concussion, cleaving), max hit points + hit points regeneration (endurance) and fleeing.
  • PER will help you mostly with track, little with defence and offensive bonus (slashing, stabbing).
  • INT will help you with track.
  • WIS is practically useless to you.

For me personally, the importance of stats goes like STR WIL DEX CON PER INT WIS. I am not fan of tracking trolls, for that, team up with a BN.
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Re: Request for troll (beginners') guide

Postby Ortansia on Tue Nov 24, 2009 4:39 pm

@Elestir thanks for these informations
you are right about the importance of stats order :p but I think for pure unarmed trolls it goes like this :
STR CONS DEX WIL PER INT WIS
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Re: Request for troll (beginners') guide

Postby Mindy on Tue Nov 24, 2009 6:00 pm

Ortansia is more correct although I would switch DEX and WIL in that line-up

All of that though is useless for a new troll player.

Max STR and CON are non-negotiables. Max them (25 and 22 respectively)
Minimum INT, WIS, and PER are also non-negotiables (with 1 exception I'll get to at the end)
that leaves dex and willpower. There's only so many ways you can configure these. I prefer 12 dex and 13 will because to get up to 14 WIL you have to drop dex down to 10 which is too low IMO

So an unarmed troll stats would look like 25 STR, 5 INT, 5 WIS, 12 DEX, 22 CON, 13 WIL, 6 PER

However that leaves 1 point left over. I'd personally increase perception to 7 but it really doesnt matter if you want to add it to INT or WIS instead.

I'll write a guide/FAQ by the end of the week.
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Re: Request for troll (beginners') guide

Postby Elestir on Tue Nov 24, 2009 7:56 pm

Mindy wrote:Max STR and CON are non-negotiables.

I agree on STR, but why do you need max CON? To have some 50 more hps and 5 more mps and by few % faster basic regen? When you have 600+ max hps, 50 more or less doesn't matter all that much. Hp regen won't save you in PK in 90% cases and there are draughts/vellums for mp regen (but with higher WIL, you will have less movecost, so you might even have better mobility). I'd sacrifice some hps in order to improve chance to save that blind which would otherwise render me completely useless in PK situation (nothing sucks more when playing troll, really, than blinds and sleeps) and since WIL also helps with other things (see above), it is more valuable than CON to me.

With DEX it is more balanced, but I'd still prefer DEX mostly for faster bash, for that might get you kills (the other advantages are just a bonus).
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Re: Request for troll (beginners') guide

Postby Ortansia on Tue Nov 24, 2009 9:47 pm

Edit : well I just asked crusher help unarmed and he says
Crusher the huge troll tells you 'this skill, lots of muscle, an iron will'
Crusher the huge troll tells you 'and great agility are required.'

It seems you are right , constitution is not needed for unarmed skill :p.
This character got Base abilities: Str:25 Int:6 Wis:6 Dex:14 Con:22 Wil:10 Per:8.
I never had problems with mps , I guess constitution helped alot. but it seems I hit harder than my other character :p
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Re: Request for troll (beginners') guide

Postby Mindy on Wed Nov 25, 2009 1:32 am

Elestir not trying to be insulting but have you extensively played troll or are you coming at this purely from a stats generator viewpoint?

Your points are all valid but I have created a tracker troll with sacrificed con and it DOES matter. I had less moves/hps and I couldn't keep up with the other trolls I was playing with when I was just following them, not even using the tracking skill. A trolls biggest penalty in my opinion is moves. You might have 50% more hitpoints than your enemy but you have the same moves as them and even the loss of 5-10 movement points + less move regen is pretty significant. Yeah yeah about draughts and vellums but thats really nonsense for your average troll player. You get overkilled too much to keep really good eq, draughts aren't very common, and vellums impossible to recite in close combat when your outnumbered.

dex and will may improve bash but we all know bash is extremely random. I would not sacrifice any con to improve my bash speed which is significantly affected by luck.

good point about willpower for saving vs blinds. That's actually why I prefer to play weapontrolls so that I can have that increased willpower without having to lose any con for it. If you wanted to go that route though, I would go with 10 dex and 14 wil, but I still wouldn't trade any con to improve it. Going from 12-10 dex will probably only have a slight effect on your fleeing ability, but its not going to immobilize you. It's basically like having the flee ability of a caster which if you played is manageable. The biggest drawback here normally is less dodge % but with unarmed, who cares. New troll players feel free to try it but I'm willing to bet that you will end up regretting the decision. When choosing to go unarmed, you just have to deal with being blinded. Your best defense is going to be targetting the caster, minimizing your time in the room, and getting lucky.

@ Ortansia, I wasn't aware that Crusher said that about agility but I'd have a feeling that if you made a troll with 12 dex and 15 dex they would both have the same OB +/- a percent or 2 and do about the same damage. Just my opinion, but stacking an unarmed trolls stats to incorporate a higher dexterity will have too many drawbacks (from willpower + con).
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Re: Request for troll (beginners') guide

Postby Elestir on Wed Nov 25, 2009 11:16 am

Mindy wrote:Elestir not trying to be insulting but have you extensively played troll or are you coming at this purely from a stats generator viewpoint?

I rarely talk about stuff I have no clue about.

Mindy wrote:Your points are all valid but I have created a tracker troll with sacrificed con and it DOES matter. I had less moves/hps and I couldn't keep up with the other trolls I was playing with when I was just following them, not even using the tracking skill. A trolls biggest penalty in my opinion is moves. You might have 50% more hitpoints than your enemy but you have the same moves as them and even the loss of 5-10 movement points + less move regen is pretty significant.

Thanks you agree my points are all valid. I agree CON does matter, but so does STR and WIL. I never said ditch CON completely and go only for STR and WIL. Keep reasonably high CON, but don't max CON at the price of having very low WIL. I agree on mobility being big issue for trolls, but I repeat CON is not the only stat that affects it, not by far. STR directly affects it through penalty for carrying eq, and also indirectly boosts this impact through wilderness skill (and that's where WIL plays its role as well). Afaik 1 CON gives like 2-3 max mps, so if you have max-2 CON you may very well have 5 less max moves, which is not that much of a problem. I don't really know how much moveregen difference of 2 in CON gives, but I refuse to believe it's too significant loss when you take all this into account.
As a tracker troll you have to sacrifice way more than just few points in CON imo. Therefore you can't blame all the mobility problems on loss in CON.

Mindy wrote:Yeah yeah about draughts and vellums but thats really nonsense for your average troll player.

Getting draughts is as easy as catching orc player (preferably shaman) willing to mix them. Orkish draughts rule so much for a troll that it is rather stupid to not have at least few of them for emergency. But I imagine the more experienced troll players carry many of them. And vellum is also not that rare piece of eq. Of course if you are one of those trolls that die every session, it's probably not the eq for you. Orkish draughts are easier and more effective choice anyway. Vellums are good because you can stack their effect with draughts + you can bob your groupmate with it, when he is being attacked exhausted.

Mindy wrote:dex and will may improve bash but we all know bash is extremely random. I would not sacrifice any con to improve my bash speed which is significantly affected by luck.

Did I say WIL improves bash? Well it does, but only marginally (as in making chance of bashing some1 slightly higher, but as a troll you rarely get dodged when you bash on aggressive anyway). On the other hand DEX doesn't only improve % in bash skill, but it also has direct impact on average bash speed (with STR/encumbrance affecting this as well - this is similar with fleeing speed). Yes, there is still a random factor, but it still matters. I repeat bash speed is something that will get you kills, and it is also something you can't boost with eq (unlike mobility, regen, etc.).
I will add that DEX affects max moves in slightly higher extent than CON too, but I agree it's still marginal (but it balances the loss from lower CON).

Mindy wrote:good point about willpower for saving vs blinds. That's actually why I prefer to play weapontrolls so that I can have that increased willpower without having to lose any con for it.

Care to elaborate? How does having a weapon increase willpower? Do you mean the -10 save spell of bejewelled shield and the black buckler? You can wear these even as unarmed troll though (yet with some malus in damage afaik).

Mindy wrote:Your best defense is going to be targetting the caster, minimizing your time in the room, and getting lucky.

That's usually smart tactics, but sometimes the caster is well protected and then you will need DEX and WIL to effectively hit-flee before he lands his blinds and WIL to eventually save them.
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Re: Request for troll (beginners') guide

Postby Ortansia on Wed Nov 25, 2009 8:39 pm

Well these days it is somehow difficult to get draughts :/.
Mainely because there are no many orcs playing ( It seems like zoc is more crowded than noc :p)
and if there are some orcs on , there is no bn to communicate with them :/.
So The best option is that you have a friend who is willing to log shaman and mix for you :)
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