Recent changes, a bright future ahead

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Re: Recent changes, a bright future ahead

Postby Finwë on Sat Apr 12, 2008 2:30 pm

Snarp wrote:The problem with making changes is people always compare the top end scout players (i'm talking eq, experience, lvls) with the average joe player and it's not realistic. Another problem might be that the gap between average scouts and top end scouts is so large that people forget about the majority and focus on the few.

I completely agree.
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Re: Recent changes, a bright future ahead

Postby Fankil on Sat Apr 12, 2008 4:07 pm

Don't you just need to know when to use flee vs. escape? Update your skills and way of thinking a little bit.

I can also point out that with my minor experience with thieves, I never had any problems with practises. I always stayed as pure as possible aswell. Isn't it you warcombos who suffer here, "multiclassing"?

Being perhaps one of the worst thief players, I still managed to hit top 3 warlords as whitie, and more, but probably less (heh), pk-exped my hero levels. Don't give me the "you don't know how to play thief"-answer, because I know I don't, but I know I succeded to some extent, while not knowing. That should say more about the old class than much else.

Talking about top-end-scouts et. al, aren't you guys the ones barking the loudest?
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Re: Recent changes, a bright future ahead

Postby Caerroil on Sat Apr 12, 2008 6:10 pm

Yes, I rarely play scouts (and I don't think that it is any secret). However I have had two legend scouts (I let one delete and the second is now fairly high level), but mostly I have a fair amount of experience playing against and chasing scouts.

Snarp seems to be one of the few scout players who understood why I find hide in small rooms/tunnels to be too good (even more so with loop-hide), even if a scout might not be able to stay hidden for long in one room it can/could most of the time just move and re-hide in another room causing the hunter to have to spend some more time on finding the new room and then start revealing there and have the whole thing start over again. All this with the constant risk of being backstabed if you are solo, making it an non-viable option in several cases while a scout rarely has the same problem.

Finwe: It very much sounds like it is you who need to learn some about how to spend your pracs wisely, not I. Your comparison between individual scout and warrior skills is totally irrelevant for if a scout (or warrior, or any other class) will be short on pracs or not. I suggest that you re-evaluate which skills get a real and significant benefit from being maxed and not only practiced quite high and then come back if you still consider pure scouts to be short on pracs for a very much playable prac-set at level 26.

(Razoor: When you are quoting someone it is generally a good idea if you don't make up the so called quote yourself and in fact do quote the one you say you are.)
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Re: Recent changes, a bright future ahead

Postby Finwë on Sat Apr 12, 2008 10:30 pm

Caerroil wrote:Snarp seems to be one of the few scout players who understood why I find hide in small rooms/tunnels to be too good (even more so with loop-hide), even if a scout might not be able to stay hidden for long in one room it can/could most of the time just move and re-hide in another room causing the hunter to have to spend some more time on finding the new room and then start revealing there and have the whole thing start over again. All this with the constant risk of being backstabed if you are solo, making it an non-viable option in several cases while a scout rarely has the same problem.

Well, firstly I acknowledge that hide in small rooms and tunnels _may_ (be /) have been too good, even if it only takes in the region of 5 seconds of searching to reveal someone hidden quick in these rooms. But, someone searching for them them should now see them leave them room. Secondly, the danger to scouts of hiding is of getting stabbed by another scout. And regen is bad since the scout is not resting. Usually the hunter will regen HPs faster than the scout (every other class regens quicker if you include cure spells for mages and clerics, plus scouts can't cure themselves when hidden). Er, where is the risk of being stabbed? You are searching, so you can't get stabbed!
Caerroil wrote:Finwe: It very much sounds like it is you who need to learn some about how to spend your pracs wisely, not I. Your comparison between individual scout and warrior skills is totally irrelevant for if a scout (or warrior, or any other class) will be short on pracs or not. I suggest that you re-evaluate which skills get a real and significant benefit from being maxed and not only practiced quite high and then come back if you still consider pure scouts to be short on pracs for a very much playable prac-set at level 26.

There is no such thing as a pure scout. What scout does not get parry and endurance? What non-zaugurz scout doesn't have a single spell? OK, there may be a few there, but regen sucks for a whitie scout without a cure spell! Obviously sneak and backstab have to be maxed. So does hide if you want to rely on it. Others need to be high for defence and fighting: dodge, piercing, parry, (attack). Piercing in melee against anything with good defence or armour sucks, so most people get missile. All scouts have track and other ranger skills very high since they need good mobility. Not a lot of flexibility or variation, given that scouts also need endurance for the regen. And I see that everyone who tested escape seemed to max it for the test. But is that a realistic test? Who is actually going to max escape? Or more importantly, should scouts need to max escape for it to be effective? No. So, how does it perform at say 75%? Obviously it shouldn't be as effective as when maxed, but it should still work nicely. Backstab just doesn't work at that level. Consensus of opinion is that even 101% is not really good enough for backstab. No other class has any skills or spells that fail to work (almost) every time above even 80% proficiency, provided they are sufficiently high level.
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Re: Recent changes, a bright future ahead

Postby Caerroil on Sat Apr 12, 2008 11:17 pm

Er, where is the risk of being stabbed? You are searching, so you can't get stabbed!

Unless you track there is no chance what so ever of finding a scout, and not all characters can track fast enough to avoid a backstab.

In my test I did max backstab, sneak, escape, missile and hide and had 10 pracs in endurance and 5 in parry. So I think I made a realistic but kind of pure pracset, or at least what most people will mean when they say "pure" any-class (some pracs in out of class skills to get "necessary" benefits from it but not too many as to affect your main class too much in a negative way).
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Re: Recent changes, a bright future ahead

Postby Snarp on Sun Apr 13, 2008 12:15 am

Fankil wrote:Talking about top-end-scouts et. al, aren't you guys the ones barking the loudest?


Not I, I havn't trained off anything to prac escape and I don't see it overly affecting me, which is why I'm surprised about Ugurz's reaction.
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Re: Recent changes, a bright future ahead

Postby Finwë on Sun Apr 13, 2008 12:59 pm

Caerroil wrote:Unless you track there is no chance what so ever of finding a scout, and not all characters can track fast enough to avoid a backstab.

Well, you shouldn't need to track in every room - it's only the first room that takes a while to pick up tracks. Following them is too quick to get stabbed.
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Re: Recent changes, a bright future ahead

Postby Elestir on Mon Apr 14, 2008 11:05 pm

Finwë wrote:
Caerroil wrote:Unless you track there is no chance what so ever of finding a scout, and not all characters can track fast enough to avoid a backstab.

Well, you shouldn't need to track in every room - it's only the first room that takes a while to pick up tracks. Following them is too quick to get stabbed.

Also if you don't have fast enough track, you can pretend to be tracking and flush instead, etc.
Besides if you want to duel scouts you should get high enough track.
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Re: Recent changes, a bright future ahead

Postby Fankil on Tue Apr 15, 2008 7:48 pm

If the guy circle-hide or hide every third room you will have to re-track. Come on!
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Re: Recent changes, a bright future ahead

Postby Finwë on Wed Apr 16, 2008 1:38 am

I haven't tracked someone circle-hiding since the recent change to track, but certainly, even before the change, you did not have to re-track to know where the person had hidden: you just had to be observant. And since track was still active, you didn't even need to re-track!
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Re: Recent changes, a bright future ahead

Postby Razoor on Sun Apr 20, 2008 11:16 pm

Oh come on Caerroil, dont be ridiculous. If you're in a closeable, which I assume is what you're on about, dont seriously tell me that you find it difficult to find a scout who "relocates" every 2 sec? You're using the absolutely worst tactic ever to find him, of course he will survive if you dont know how chase it. The best part about playing every class alot is that you know how to effectively fight against them. You, having not played a lot of scout in PK, clearly doesn't know how to do it. I would find, and slaughter, any scout trying to hide in a closeable in a matter of seconds, and i'm not trying to flaunt my ego I'm just stating facts. "Relocating" doesn't work if you know how to counter it.

Also, aren't "pure" scouts the current pest of mume? A class we all want to see less of? So why reduce the amounts of pracs available for multiclassing scouts who bring some fun to the game? If i was gonna play my thieves i would probably do like Snarp and not change anything at all. Escape is still kinda useless for escaping (hihi), the only useful situation for it is when you're about to get fled into a closeable.
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Re: Recent changes, a bright future ahead

Postby Fankil on Mon Apr 21, 2008 6:29 am

Finwe, that's not true, unless you'd track in circles until the tracks tick, and that way realize where the player finally hid. I include "where" as a track skill here as well, because tracking is what you actually do. Being observant doesn't cut it. Also, I had the impression that we were discussing about how it was before the changes, and why the changes were made.


Razoor, weren't you talking about how the average player is affected by the changes? If so, you should consider how the average player can fight a thief, not the top 10% like yourself. Your average thief has it way easier to relocate and hide every second room vs. his/her average PKer, I would say. Same should go for a good thief player, you probably have a few tricks up your sleeve which can be used vs. the slicker PKer. Yes, no?
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Re: Recent changes, a bright future ahead

Postby Andróg on Thu Apr 24, 2008 11:58 pm

Years ago I used to play my scout with sucky moves a lot, so avoiding the enemy through circle-hiding and whatnot was part of the play just to survive fights I couldn't win. My 2 cents based on that is: yes, using common sense and being observant still helped you to find the circle-hiding thief, however, most of the time the thief did manage to regen quite some moves while the hunter was busy figuring out the tracks. So I the only time I actually died in process circle-hiding was when I simply ran out of moves while trying to avoid Azazello + Stolb. Thus, it is possible to find the place where the thief is hiding, but most of the time the thief can continue the cycle until he has regenned enough to leave for good.
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Re: Recent changes, a bright future ahead

Postby leikzum on Sun Apr 27, 2008 11:22 am

Sooo, the zaugurz scout class is ruined. Why not just completly remove the scout guild in zoc, hell remove whole zoc. Obviously you gods does not want zaugurz to prevail anyways. You first limit the effect of draughts, our only way to get moves since no bob nor mounts. Then you change sneak + hide so we cant regen with hide anymore and for each failed escape you eat one 120hps dispel. FUCKING GREAT WORK!! I want my 4 years of exping up a lv70 zaugurz scout back, since they're close to unplayable at the moment. And yeah you rant about new changes, how long will they take to even out the EXTREME maluses zaugurz scouts got now? 1 years? 2 years? I wonder what V+ that died to zaugurs scouts and thought "ohnoes! someone killed me, lets ruin the whole class, or wait why not the whole race!" GREAT JOB!!!! . Ugurz was the last one playing, but after Nolomes pretty bugabuse no there's no more zaugurz scouts playing.

I said it before and I say it again GREAT JOB!! Try fix something that is broken next time, this is just silly.

And I'd like to sort some things out here

Hiding have never been overpowered, it's just ju dumb fucks who never figured out how to smoke a hiding scout out of his spot. There's something called awareness you can practise, ever heard of it? In combination with sense life and you can find any hider in no time, without the hiding person even KNOWING that you have spotted him, meaing you can land a stab/bash without the hiding person even knows whats going on. But hey! I guess that wasnt enough? or rest of mume was just to retarded to use this? I dunno but I've killed tons of zaugurz scouts trying to loophide with this as both puke and bn scout. But I guess it's just easier to sit on your fat ass and whine (or sit on your fat ass, whine and then change the whole game if you happend to be a V+) instead of actually trying to figure out a way to kill a scout. Same things goes with sneak, awareness sense life and you could spam down ANY sneaker before, just as you can do today with the "nosneak" flag. The changes was totally uneccessary, but it seems that the gods see the players of mume as a bunch fo retards, not capable of figuring out how to kill scouts, so hey! lets fuck up the scout class totally instead!

I remember last time you tried to fix something with the scout class, there was a backstab cap on what? 30hps? for like 2 RL years because something was "unbalanced" with the scout class some years back. I bet this will be the same

and for the third time;

GREAT FUCKING WORK!!

Oh one last thing, the sleep thing that happend to ugurz, I bet none here have missed it;

Nolome sleeps Ugurz on water who drowns while beeing slept, all while Nolome calmy is sitting and watching the whole show. And ofcourse none should get demoted here right?! If it was Luke (Mochomurka) sleeping, lets say Nain (Gothmog) Ohoho there would have been demotes and changes to the sleep spell by today already. But I guess that's just the way of mume isnt it?
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Re: Recent changes, a bright future ahead

Postby Parrafin on Sun Apr 27, 2008 4:35 pm

I've never played a Zaug, but I find them constantly hunting me in every corner of Arda. it does kind of ruin the game for some people when theres stabbing Zaugs making a career of hunting noobs in places they thought were somewhat safe. It doesn't help when they can stab even Hero+ non-warriors dead in one hit. No, I don't think the Valar are a bunch of noobs who are all pissy that Ugurz stabbed them dead, either. It's not that hard to ward off a highlevel scout if you're resourceful. Ugurz has never killed either of my characters but he's tried many, many times. @bill ferny, fangorn, old forest, oer, you name it. Before & after the changes. And I'm the one still always mobbing whenever I try to explore new zones...

I don't get it, it makes sense to me if you got slept in a body of water, that you'd drown to death. Maybe it was a bug, but it makes an awful lot of sense.
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Re: Recent changes, a bright future ahead

Postby leikzum on Sun Apr 27, 2008 6:22 pm

Parrafarin or whatever your name was, every other way that a character is dealt damage on MUME will make you wake up from sleep spell. Nolome (or someone else, but then telling her) have obviously been trying this out, found a nice little bug, or feature if you wish, then been running around trying to sleep ppl on rivers to get cheap kills.

It's pathetic and it's still my opinion that if it was any V+ who died and, yes lets say Luke (or me for that reason) doing the whole sleep thing, we would have been demoted back to the stoneage. But hey! When it happends to a Zaugurz scout that none manages to kill (due to your own retardness, read my previous post on how you did catch a zaugurz scout before the changes)

2008/04/27 16:13, Nolómë:
Cagim you attribute far too much importance to what is being said here, something as far as I know no-one in any position with real power in MUME management does.

To get this changed it kind of would help if Ugurz made a bugreport about it, something he hadn't done last I checked (which was yesterday), and preferably did so in a civil tone.


That's what Nolome wrote on ER, which clearly states that (s)he KNEW that this was a bug, (s)he KNEW that sleep spell wasnt suppose to work like this, yet it used it to get a cheap pathetic kill. Luke have been demoted for EXACTLY the same thing, when (ab)using shovel in a way that it wasnt ment to. But I guess it all comes down to who you are, where you're from and what the Valars think of you doesnt it? Let's just face it, there's no such thing as justice on mume, it's run by the higher gods as their own little playground, where they can rule as they please, demote who they want and change things that does not fit them. That's how it always have been and that's how it always will be. I don't except any justice or fairness out of this game, some people can do whatever they want whilst others will get demoted for close to nothing!
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Re: Recent changes, a bright future ahead

Postby Wobbler on Sun Apr 27, 2008 8:16 pm

Here's an idea for a brighter future for this forum:
Anyone who curses at another player or otherwise posts personal insults not related to the subject of the thread should be banned for a fortnight.
Politicians are wise and benevolent and will gladly sacrifice themselves for the common good. Anyone who implies that there might exist dishonest politicians is obviously a terrorist who should be locked up indefinitely without a trial.
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Re: Recent changes, a bright future ahead

Postby Jahara on Sun Apr 27, 2008 8:26 pm

Please stay on topic. If you have any bad feelings create a new thread to make yourself heard! :-)
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Re: Recent changes, a bright future ahead

Postby Edvard on Thu May 01, 2008 2:51 pm

"Hiding have never been overpowered, it's just ju dumb fucks who never figured out how to smoke a hiding scout out of his spot. There's something called awareness you can practise, ever heard of it? In combination with sense life and you can find any hider in no time, without the hiding person even KNOWING that you have spotted him, meaing you can land a stab/bash without the hiding person even knows whats going on. But hey! I guess that wasnt enough? or rest of mume was just to retarded to use this? I dunno but I've killed tons of zaugurz scouts trying to loophide with this as both puke and bn scout."

Newmie has maxed awareness and can't search out a scout any easier than any other chars of mine. Of course he has no sense life though because bears can't cast spells. It may very well be easy to kill zaugurz scouts like you say if you play a bashing backstabber with awareness and sense life (dunno i never tried) but I think that hide was unbalanced before against all other races and classes and I dont see any reason why surviving should be easy for zaugurz, it's a ** race after all. I do see the need for a new offensive skill or power, as i've said before, but as far as surviving goes I believe we're fine.
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Re: Recent changes, a bright future ahead

Postby Razoor on Fri May 02, 2008 8:40 am

I second Leikzums post. I logged on my zorc-scout the other day cause i figured, well, it might just be playable despite these changes...lets just say i was horribly wrong. You can't do anything even remotely interesting anymore with the scoutclass, the ONLY thing left to do is stabbing people before they
see you. Is there anyone at all on MUME who enjoys this kind of play? Wasn't this the biggest issue with scouts in the first place? The change did NOTHING to make scouts less annoying, just like predicted it only served to make the playstyle more boring for both the player and everyone else.

I almost mobdied twice in tharbad when trying to sneak through, you think that's fun? Getting randomly instaflushed out by a mob and then spammed down by a gazillion of guards? A scout is supposed to be sneaky and stealthy, right now you're about as stealthy as a cow in a wheelchair. This goes for all closeables with mobs in that you could previously use to your advantage, now that advantage is gone. Scouts are a weak class when it comes to actual fighting, you could use sneak to your advantage to win if you picked your fightingareas well...now you can't even do that. There is nothing left but running around with maxed envenom, poison, and backstab+flee things. Perhaps the occasional bashtrap would work as well. Good job!
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