[HowTo] Advanced Character Statistics

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Jahara
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[HowTo] Advanced Character Statistics

Post by Jahara » Sun Feb 24, 2008 1:09 am

Introduction
Ever since NEWS 2157 characters in MUME have been able to improve and neglect base abilities as a replacement for partial rerolls that were previously given out after a month of retirement. This "training reroll" acts as a second partial reroll along with the "retirement partial reroll". The obvious benefits of using both these features in conjunction is the improvement of old characters that were previously unplayable due to changing game mechanics.

However, training can also be (ab)used with new characters to improve practice percentages! Read the following from HELP TRAIN:
NOTE: Unlike rerolls, training does not affect your practice percentages. The
percentage to which you can practice a skill is only based on your reference
abilities.
This means that characters can be created with "unplayable" base abilities that result in higher practice percentages can then be adjusted into something even more powerful through training! All it takes is the careful application of what certain statistics do and whether or not they are required in the final result of the character. After deciding what to slowly train/neglect skills it takes about a months worth of time for the character to reach the limit of the reroll.



Statistic Effects
The following table provides exactly what each stat helps with; if you want to see what stats do with practice percents I suggest you look at a stat generator.

Strength: Wieldable Weapons, Carrying Capacity/Fleeing, Offensive Bonus
Intelligence: Maximum Mana, Armour Spell, (Herblore?)
Wisdom: Maximum Mana, Herblore, (Sanctuary Absorb?)
Dexterity: Natural Dodge Bonus, Fleeing Rate, Maximum Moves
Constitution: Maximum Hit/Movement points, Movement Regen
Will: Resisting/Casting Influence of Hostile Magic, Regeneration
Perception: Detection, Line of Sight

Generally training is primarily useful for improving strength; dexterity and constitution are also useful, but the best really depends on a player's style of play. These physical stats give the most improvement for a character outside of practice percentages. On the flip side, the best stat for neglecting is perception due to its relatively minor effects. Because of this training is less useful for characters that have very little perception and more useful for magic users, thieves, and tracking warriors.



A Couple Examples
Say we take a powerful cleaving dwarf that has absolutely no chance of tracking (63% according to the statgen).

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Str:19 Int: 9 Wis: 7 Dex:15 Con:19 Wil:16 Per: 7.  (Dwarf: Pure Warrior)
By adjusting the stats slightly we are able to take away from Wil and Dex and boost Int and Per giving us 85% track. This is better considering the amount of stat points spent and the resulting practice percentages. The character that we would therefore create and start leveling would be using the following stats:

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Str:19 Int:12 Wis: 7 Dex:14 Con:19 Wil:15 Per:10.  (Dwarf: Untrained Tracking Warrior)
After creating the character we can then train neglect Int and Per and train improve Dex and Wil back up to the values in the previous stats. Since Wil and Dex aren't that important for practice percentages we are able to neglect them for the purposes of learning track while still creating an extremely tough dwarf who will be able to dodge and regenerate moves on par with the original model that we based these stats on!


This technique is far more effective with combo classes where we boost the two main class skills at the cost of survivability. Here is an example of a bolting thief with 100% thief and 98% mage skills:

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Str:13 Int:16 Wis:14 Dex:19 Con:13 Wil:11 Per:14.  (Elf: Unplayable Thief-mage)
This is mediocre overall, if not impossible to play. Instead of trying to placate both basic physical and mental abilities we will instead boost perception which is necessary for thief skill percentages and reduce constitution and strength (the stats that benefit the most from training). After the modification of the previous model, this character will have 104% thief skills from the 17 perception:

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Str:11 Int:16 Wis:14 Dex:19 Con:12 Wil:11 Per:17.  (Elf: Untrained Thief-mage)
The next step then is creating the character where we then train down perception and then train up Con/Str for better physical stats so that he can take more punishment and wield better bows while still retaining the thief percentages of 17 perception!




If anyone else found some nifty tricks feel free to post them here :twisted:

Jahara
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Re: HOWTO: Advanced Character Statistics

Post by Jahara » Sun Feb 24, 2008 1:48 am

Optimized Character Statistics
Here is a list of statistics that I'll slowly build up as people submit them. Most of these stats should be tweaked in a stat generator and then also adjusted using train to the player's preferences. If you want to submit your stats just send me your base stats (type "info %B" into MUME).

Free People
Offensive Warriors

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Str:19 Int:12 Wis: 7 Dex:14 Con:19 Wil:15 Per:10.  (Dwarf: 85% track; train down Per/Int; train up Dex)
Defensive Warriors

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Str:18 Int:10 Wis: 9 Dex:16 Con:18 Wil:13 Per:12.  (Man: 85% track; train down Per/Int; train up Dex)
Thieves

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Str:13 Int:10 Wis: 9 Dex:18 Con:16 Wil:12 Per:18.  (Man: 110% track; train down Per; train up Con/Str)
Mage

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Str: 9 Int:19 Wis:17 Dex:12 Con: 8 Wil:15 Per:16.  (Elf: train down Per/Wil; train up Con)
Cleric

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Str: 9 Int:18 Wis:19 Dex:11 Con:11 Wil:17 Per:10.  (Half-Elf: Credit: Schmidt)
Str:13 Int:17 Wis:19 Dex:10 Con:13 Wil:16 Per: 8.  (Half-Elf)
Str:13 Int:17 Wis:17 Dex: 7 Con:13 Wil:19 Per: 7.  (Dwarf: Credit: Filk)
Combo: Thief-mage

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Str:11 Int:16 Wis:14 Dex:19 Con:12 Wil:11 Per:17.   (Elf: train down Per; train up Con/Str; Credit: Syd)
Combo: Battlemage

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Str:17 Int:16 Wis:15 Dex:13 Con:13 Wil:13 Per:14.   (Man: Credit: Ridley)
Str:16 Int:17 Wis:14 Dex:13 Con:16 Wil:12 Per:12.   (Man: Credit: Zorvrem)
Forces of the Dark Lord
Warrior Orcs

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Str:18 Int: 9 Wis: 6 Dex:14 Con:18 Wil:14 Per:16.  (Orc: 100% track; Credit: Rogon)
Pure Shaman

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Str 13 Int:15 Wis:14 Dex:12 Con:14 Wil:14 Per:14. (Orc: Credit: Rogon)
Battle Shaman

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Str:16 Int:14 Wis:15 Dex:10 Con:16 Wil:13 Per:12.  (Orc)
Trolls

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Str:23 Int: 8 Wis: 5 Dex:14 Con:21 Wil:12 Per:11.  (Troll: Credit: Trample)
Str:23 Int: 7 Wis: 5 Dex:14 Con:21 Wil: 9 Per:14.  (Troll: 85% track; train down Per; train up Str)
Black Numenoreans

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Str: 9 Int:18 Wis:15 Dex:11 Con:12 Wil:15 Per:14.  (BN: YMMV)

Jahara
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Re: HOWTO: Advanced Character Statistics

Post by Jahara » Sun Feb 24, 2008 3:02 am

Placeholder for future posts :-)

Razoor
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Re: HOWTO: Advanced Character Statistics

Post by Razoor » Sun Feb 24, 2008 10:28 am

I dont really know if i agree with you on everything. While you are correct in the sense that you can improve wil/dex and stuff, i find that the only use for this is to improve Con. What i do on all my chars is basically train down Per and improve Con, usually by almost +2. I think this was definitely not what they intended with the change, but it adds a very nice variety to the game since you are less restricted by stats when making combo-characters, and also if you managed to mess up your stats a little bit it's no disaster since you are allowed to tweak them without waiting for a year. I find Combos the most fun characters in mume (only kind of character i play atm), and I'm very happy about this change because it allows for even more tweaking! (fun!)

Again, I dont really see myself using it in the way you described with your stat-examples but to each his own.

EDIT: Also, keep in mind that by going with lower initial Con such as in one of your orc-examples above, you will lose a few % in warriorskills...not that it matters too much, but still.

Caerroil
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Re: HOWTO: Advanced Character Statistics

Post by Caerroil » Sun Feb 24, 2008 1:17 pm

It's good that there is a guide available for training stats for new players (and those that don't test much things but might want to use this now).

I have a few disagreements regarding what affects what though, and some additions:
* Current WIS doesn't seem to have any effect at all on sanc cap. (Test with a cleric before and after it drinks from FoY.)
* DEX adds moves (as much as CON).
* WIS seems to have a very small effect (if any) on how well you can mix herblores while INT matters a lot. (Yes, I know that everyone else thinks it's WIS but do some testing and you will notice that INT seems far more important. A cleric I know (17 INT, 18 WIS) mishmashed at least 25% of drake-slumber lore while my mages (19 INT, 18 WIS) so far have mishmashed 1-2 kits in about 100 attempts.)

I primarily use train to improve STR and CON, and sometimes DEX. DEX doesn't add that much while STR can add very important abilities (like enabling you to use your weapon of choice without a penalty and making it easier to move on foot) and CON adds some hps and moves which is always a good thing (although possibly of limited use). Regarding training down WIL I wouldn't do that on any kind of caster, it is very hard to be certain about this but it does seem like current WIL affects the success rate for mental type spells. In any case current WIL affects how many spellevels you can store (tested with mage before and after FoY) and that's a good enough reason in my opinion to not train it down.

Regarding lower initial physical stats and it's effect on warrior skill percentages in my opinion that's of almost no importance at all, since warrior skills have the highest rate of diminished returns from practicing them.

An example:
16 STR, 17 CON, 12 WIL -> 99% concussion (with only warrior and ranger skills pracced)
16 STR, 17 CON, 14 WIL -> 101% concussion (with only warrior and ranger skills pracced)

Getting 90% in a weapon skill will take some 15-20 pracs (depending on stats and how pure a warrior you are), getting 100% will take some 10 more pracs. (In the example above the second set of stats got 90% concussion with 19 pracs in it.) Similar with endurance, the different between around 40 pracs and 58 pracs in it is very small (around 10 hps). Maxing warrior skills is IMO a "big" mistake most people do, dropping 5-10 pracs in weapons/parry/endurance/bash will make it possible to max something like rescue or bash (which are the two skills that benefit the most from getting maxed out) or getting one more weaponskill. All that at the cost of 1-2 OB, 1-2 PB, 1-5 hps and possibly 1 mp.

Jahara
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Re: HOWTO: Advanced Character Statistics

Post by Jahara » Sun Feb 24, 2008 4:09 pm

Thanks for the input, both of you! I'll be sure to update the post as more information becomes available since most of it is just hearsay.

One of the great things about MUME is that stats used are often very linked to playstyle which is why so many people often disagree with the stats. I tend to flee a lot so maybe thats why I like DEX :lol:

filk
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Re: HOWTO: Advanced Character Statistics

Post by filk » Mon Feb 25, 2008 3:27 pm

Hmm, barely play anymore, so now i can post my *secret* stats for my dwarven cleric with stored quake.

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Base abilities: Str:13 Int:17 Wis:17 Dex:7 Con:13 Wil:19 Per:7.
Quite good playable altho the dex 7 scares the crap out of people, forgetting fleeing isnt only based on dex.
Also Per isnt used for every offensive spell.

Cygnus
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Re: [HowTo] Advanced Character Statistics

Post by Cygnus » Wed Feb 27, 2008 7:54 pm

Should also noted that Constitution has a fairly significant effect on move regen. Something along the order of about 5-10% per point (extra 3-4 moves per minute).

Thanik
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Re: [HowTo] Advanced Character Statistics

Post by Thanik » Tue Mar 04, 2008 5:11 am

Jahara, is your first example actually possible? What are the limitations on training attributes? The stat changes in that example are well beyond what a partial reroll can give you.

Jahara
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Re: [HowTo] Advanced Character Statistics

Post by Jahara » Tue Mar 04, 2008 1:58 pm

Thanik wrote:Jahara, is your first example actually possible? What are the limitations on training attributes? The stat changes in that example are well beyond what a partial reroll can give you.
I believe that the limitation is this same "difference" value as when performing a partial reroll such that it can not exceed 100. You might be correct about the first example being impossible though. It seems that when I was doing this I ran into a known difference miscalculation bug in my stat generator. However, this should still work in principle :-)

Wobbler
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Re: [HowTo] Advanced Character Statistics

Post by Wobbler » Tue Mar 04, 2008 2:55 pm

I'm a bit curious as to why you label a stat set with 12 int and 10 per "tracking"...
Will that even give enough track to see enemy tracks older than 2 ticks?
Politicians are wise and benevolent and will gladly sacrifice themselves for the common good. Anyone who implies that there might exist dishonest politicians is obviously a terrorist who should be locked up indefinitely without a trial.

Jahara
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Re: [HowTo] Advanced Character Statistics

Post by Jahara » Tue Mar 04, 2008 3:23 pm

Wobbler wrote:I'm a bit curious as to why you label a stat set with 12 int and 10 per "tracking"...
Will that even give enough track to see enemy tracks older than 2 ticks?
That particular combination of stats gives a 85% skill in track which (from what I've noticed) people consider to be the least playable. This is of course opinion but I have tested the stats and indeed track does work well at those percentages.

Wobbler
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Re: [HowTo] Advanced Character Statistics

Post by Wobbler » Tue Mar 04, 2008 3:36 pm

Quite subjective indeed, but I wouldn't play anything but a Troll with so low track ;)
Politicians are wise and benevolent and will gladly sacrifice themselves for the common good. Anyone who implies that there might exist dishonest politicians is obviously a terrorist who should be locked up indefinitely without a trial.

Razoor
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Re: [HowTo] Advanced Character Statistics

Post by Razoor » Tue Mar 04, 2008 4:13 pm

Wobbler wrote:Quite subjective indeed, but I wouldn't play anything but a Troll with so low track ;)
I'm rerolling 2 of my chars for a year cause they only have 94% track, anything under 96 is completely and utterly unplayable :)

Thanik
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Re: [HowTo] Advanced Character Statistics

Post by Thanik » Tue Mar 04, 2008 5:41 pm

Ah cool. Thanks very much. Gives me an idea for a 100% track orc with max str/con.

Maulpaw
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Re: [HowTo] Advanced Character Statistics

Post by Maulpaw » Wed Mar 05, 2008 11:37 pm

I have never used this and it makes me a bit confused if it works as I suspect. I checked the stat generator - cool tool.

Is what you are saying that:
1. I create a character with high int and per. This makes it possible to prac track and get 100+%.
2. I decay int and per and put those stats into something else.
3. I get to keep my 100+% track although my stats (in the stat generator) may say that my max is 85%.

?

Really abusive.. wonder if it is intended.

Thanik
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Re: [HowTo] Advanced Character Statistics

Post by Thanik » Wed Mar 05, 2008 11:44 pm

I would guess that it's an unwanted side effect. It was probably too difficult to code in changes to your skill %s as your abilities decayed/improved. Personally I think it's cool, I like the fact that this game provides so much scope to customize and tweak a character.

Maulpaw
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Re: [HowTo] Advanced Character Statistics

Post by Maulpaw » Thu Mar 06, 2008 2:34 pm

So - lets say I create a thief like Maulpaw. Let's pretend I select stats that gave me very good tracking. Int and Per seem to be determining that. I prac it to max at legend level and get 100+%.

Now, in order to get high Int I decided to leave Dex low during creation. Now at level 26 I decide to train neglect int and train improve dex. I also did not practice any backstab until now. After a month my dex has risen and I practice backstab.
I wonder:
1. Would I get higher backstab than if I had trained it with the lower dex value?

2. If I already had practiced backstab with the lower dex, would training off backstab and repracticing it give it a higher percentage value?

I caught Jahara online just before he logged of and tried to ask this. He managed to say (I hope you don't mind me commenting you here Jahara)
Jahara tells you 'shake'
*# R>
Jahara tells you 'the only things that change are the stats themselves'
*# R>
Jahara tells you 'the practice sessions are still based upon the original stats'

Which to me contradicts what I am saying but I am not sure he understood the question.

Caerroil
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Re: [HowTo] Advanced Character Statistics

Post by Caerroil » Thu Mar 06, 2008 4:14 pm

Training your stats changes your current stats, your base stats stay the same. Knowledge in skills/spells is only based on your base stats, and the distribution of pracs in skills for different classes. So training a stat will have no effect on a skill no matter when/how/where/... you prac.

Maulpaw
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Re: [HowTo] Advanced Character Statistics

Post by Maulpaw » Thu Mar 06, 2008 8:03 pm

Allright I finally got it, thanks.

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