MUME

Keep at bay can be very overpowered sometimes. You can practically kill yourself hunting down/fighting a spear user. Which is fine, imo! However I think that keep at bay shouldn't work on bash like it does today, so that at least there is some way to outskill a spear-user.

True, I mean stab is so good everyone uses it right now, huh?

Stab is good not only because of the keep at bay thingie.
It's a good for mages.
It's a good defensive weapon, plus the ability to hit other stab weapo users.
It's good for poisoning and supposedly leaves more wounds, which is also a good damage boost.

However it's still a rather hopeless weapon as a primary weapon for pk. :-/

I fought Stolb in skeletalwarrior-mail eq, as lvl 35ish Zaug, black metal shield and giant spear. We both started healthy, he was wounded when i was hurt, but then i felt too lame to use keep at bay so i started attacking which made me loose. I died when he was bad. He was lvl 100 in fullset. I almost got pissed off at myself for having it work like that

My point is that if it didn't work on bashes, at least you could outsmart your enemy even if he's wielding a spear. I realize not so many uses it, which is quite strange in my opinion. I always think to myself that i should keep spear instead of ornate on Savage, but then i fall for the group pressure or something

I have PKed some (but not much) as a spear-wielding warrior. Spears do too little damage to be of any use as an offensive weapon (unless one is hunting an unarmoured, riding opponent, but those are quite rare), and to keep someone at bay requires being aggressive since it relies only on ob. There is also a long time in between each attempt to keep at bay, since spears tend to be slow.
All in all, relying on keeping at bay to beat someone requires good timing, luck, and an opponent that will keep chasing and attacking even if losing just because you are fleeing (granted, there are some who would hunt a fine Hobbit they cannot hit in sun when they play an Orc who is bad and slow, just because the Hobbit is fleeing in panic).

Going wimpy with a spear is also pointless since it is the weaponclass that offers the lowest pb.

All other weaponclasses (except piercing against heavily armoured opponents) offer both more damage and better defence (even at the same time, for all but two-handed weapons).

Why not make 'keep at bay' depend both on ob and pb?

Or better yet, one's stabbing weapons skill!

Yes, that is even better.

Edvard wrote:I fought Stolb in skeletalwarrior-mail eq, as lvl 35ish Zaug, black metal shield and giant spear. We both started healthy, he was wounded when i was hurt, but then i felt too lame to use keep at bay so i started attacking which made me loose. I died when he was bad. He was lvl 100 in fullset. I almost got pissed off at myself for having it work like that

My point is that if it didn't work on bashes, at least you could outsmart your enemy even if he's wielding a spear. I realize not so many uses it, which is quite strange in my opinion. I always think to myself that i should keep spear instead of ornate on Savage, but then i fall for the group pressure or something

Stolb did well to keep you around.

Snarp wrote:

Edvard wrote:I fought Stolb in skeletalwarrior-mail eq, as lvl 35ish Zaug, black metal shield and giant spear. We both started healthy, he was wounded when i was hurt, but then i felt too lame to use keep at bay so i started attacking which made me loose. I died when he was bad. He was lvl 100 in fullset. I almost got pissed off at myself for having it work like that

My point is that if it didn't work on bashes, at least you could outsmart your enemy even if he's wielding a spear. I realize not so many uses it, which is quite strange in my opinion. I always think to myself that i should keep spear instead of ornate on Savage, but then i fall for the group pressure or something

Stolb did well to keep you around.

What is that supposed to mean?

Btw I had two different fights mixed up in my head, it was against another high lvl orc in fullset, Storan, that I had keep at bay work ridiculously good and I'm pretty sure i would've won alltogether if I had kept fleeing around. And thats just wrong in my opinion.

Edvard wrote:I fought Stolb in skeletalwarrior-mail eq, as lvl 35ish Zaug, black metal shield and giant spear. We both started healthy, he was wounded when i was hurt, but then i felt too lame to use keep at bay so i started attacking which made me loose. I died when he was bad. He was lvl 100 in fullset. I almost got pissed off at myself for having it work like that

Then Stolb wasn't in full set - Stolb uses spears too. :-/ or it wasn't Stolb.

Or, as said, he simply fooled you.

Edvard wrote:I'm pretty sure i would've won alltogether if I had kept fleeing around.

I'm pretty sure you wouldn't have won if you kept fleeing around, because your foe would simply stop attacking you and leave.

And regarding the keep-at-bay vs bash...

Keep-at-bay only works when the spear user is not in any kind of delay. If he is bashing himself, he won't keep you at bay on your attempt to bash it. Neither will he keep you at bay if he is revealing for sneakers, etc... (correct me if I am wrong) So it is not such a problem imo. If he keeps keeping you at bay when you are bashing him, just ask a fellow scout to stab him as you watch each other pretending to be bashing...

My level 35ish zorc with about 15 pracs in stabbing and max smite has won 90% of 1v1 warrior fights. If you don't fail to keep at bay and keep your distance properly it's actually hard to lose at all. Switching weapons is a key to victory.

Keep at bay is (or was) based on your opponents PB and your own OB to some extent, thought that matters to a lesser degree! That's why it's so good vs smiters Some rather obvious tactics occur in the light of this information.