Link cap

Old MUME discussions.

Moderator: Builders

Forum rules
The posts in this forum should be related to MUME.
Snarp
Posts: 39
Joined: Wed Feb 27, 2008 12:09 am

Link cap

Post by Snarp » Wed Mar 19, 2008 12:17 am

Can it even be done?

This would end the never ending link discussion and it would even out the playing field considerably. I thought I may aswell post a topic about it and get an answer because I don't even know if it's possible. It goes without saying that if it were possible, I'd vote for it to be implemented.

Rogon
Posts: 158
Joined: Sun Feb 24, 2008 4:49 pm

Re: Link cap

Post by Rogon » Wed Mar 19, 2008 12:26 am

You mean cap it so people with a ping above 100 gets disconnected? Sure, it could be done. I think it would reduce mume's playerbase though!

Rogon
Posts: 158
Joined: Sun Feb 24, 2008 4:49 pm

Re: Link cap

Post by Rogon » Wed Mar 19, 2008 12:29 am

Seriously though I get what you're saying.

I've just never found the 'I'm suffering so you should suffer too' argument very interesting.

Snarp
Posts: 39
Joined: Wed Feb 27, 2008 12:09 am

Re: Link cap

Post by Snarp » Wed Mar 19, 2008 12:31 am

Rogon wrote:Seriously though I get what you're saying.

I've just never found the 'I'm suffering so you should suffer too' argument very interesting.
People only suffer because others have better links. If the links are even noone suffers. The speed isn't the problem, it's the difference in speeds between all the players. It's no coincidence all the best players have great links.

Elemmakil
Posts: 88
Joined: Sat Feb 23, 2008 10:03 pm
Location: Massachusetts, United States of America

Re: Link cap

Post by Elemmakil » Wed Mar 19, 2008 12:33 am

Cap it at 130 in my opinion! That would put everyone in the USA to Europe on even footing. (Majority of the players)

Mindy
Posts: 20
Joined: Fri Mar 14, 2008 12:38 am

Re: Link cap

Post by Mindy » Wed Mar 19, 2008 12:42 am

true rogon but conversely why should people be rewarded because they live closer to an arbitary place where the server is held? i don't think a 80-100 ms delay is totally unreasonable. we have the new link command telling us what our ping is so lets say someone has a 20ms ping, just add 60-80 ms to it. or if someone has a 130ms ping, just leave their link alone. the game wouldnt progress 3-5x as slow for them because the human reaction speed is a much larger number.

oh i have no idea if this is even feasible, just throwing my ideas out there

Rogon
Posts: 158
Joined: Sun Feb 24, 2008 4:49 pm

Re: Link cap

Post by Rogon » Wed Mar 19, 2008 1:10 am

I understand that it is annoying to play on a slow link. I've played on a 150ms dialup modem. The game is much more enjoyable on 40ms. So truly, I do have sympathy.

However, I do not think the good of the game as a total, and the fairness in PK situation for people with slow links are the same thing in this question. It would help you guys, but the game would lose players and it would, all things considered, be negative for mume.

And yes, I think we've heard the arguments. People who would quit can't PK if they can't kill slowlinked americans etc. No need to repeat them. Even if they were 100% correct, I still think the change would be negative for mume as a whole.

Just my opinions, obviously. I think I would quickly lose interest in playing if I was forced back to 150ms again.

You guys have my respect for playing with that kind of link. It's just not a good solution.

Elemmakil
Posts: 88
Joined: Sat Feb 23, 2008 10:03 pm
Location: Massachusetts, United States of America

Re: Link cap

Post by Elemmakil » Wed Mar 19, 2008 1:37 am

I half agree with Rogon and half disagree with him. Most of the players are from the United States (from some old poll + just general whois'ing ppl etc.). If they were on even link with the rest of the people , some might enjoy MUME more!

Mindy
Posts: 20
Joined: Fri Mar 14, 2008 12:38 am

Re: Link cap

Post by Mindy » Wed Mar 19, 2008 2:13 am

how many peole quit this game because of the relative unfairness of link issues? I think if you added up how many people quit this game because their link was too slow to enjoy pk, over how many people would quit if their link went from 30-100ms, you would gain more people by making that change

that being said, i totally agree with your point rogon that there is no clear solution. it definitely sucks more having to go from a fast link to a slower link, than forever playing with a slow link. however you might not find it nearly so terrible after getting used to it rather than the first time you played with it. maybe not, i dont know, i never had a fast link. i know this isn't your problem with such a change rogon but, quitting the game because you dont have a significant advantage in pk anymore won't give you my sympathy.

Wobbler
Posts: 393
Joined: Mon Feb 25, 2008 10:02 pm

Re: Link cap

Post by Wobbler » Wed Mar 19, 2008 10:23 am

I think this would be a terrible idea. It may even out the playing field in a few situations, but on the whole it would just add a great deal of frustration for a great many players, without actually improving very much.
If I get a 100 ms lag forced upon me, it would still be 117 ms with no packet loss vs some other guy's 300 ms link with random packet loss. Once I adapted (if I bothered instead of quitting again in anger) I would still be at an advantage, then what? Increase the forced lag to 200 ms? Or maybe make this a pbm game, so it doesn't matter if I'm playing via a 2745 ms link from Darfur?

We also have the fairness of investment. Most Europeans have better links thanks to public spending; this means that much of our communication infrastructure is tax funded. It would hardly be fair to punish us for having paid our taxes, would it?


Also, don't forget those who have done quite well in the past with neither a European link nor every key bound to hide thoroughly. Those were skilled players, no one could doubt that.
Politicians are wise and benevolent and will gladly sacrifice themselves for the common good. Anyone who implies that there might exist dishonest politicians is obviously a terrorist who should be locked up indefinitely without a trial.

Babanovac
Posts: 10
Joined: Sun Feb 24, 2008 3:29 pm

Re: Link cap

Post by Babanovac » Wed Mar 19, 2008 10:23 am

this discussion took place on ER some time ago (might be a few years) and I proposed the same thing. Someone then said that this change was actually implemented once a long time ago and that everyone hated it. Don't know if it's true or not, maybe some of the old players can confirm/deny

Babanovac
Posts: 10
Joined: Sun Feb 24, 2008 3:29 pm

Re: Link cap

Post by Babanovac » Wed Mar 19, 2008 10:27 am

Wobbler wrote: We also have the fairness of investment. Most Europeans have better links thanks to public spending; this means that much of our communication infrastructure is tax funded. It would hardly be fair to punish us for having paid our taxes, would it?
That is not true at all. The link difference between US and EU is caused by the fiber link connection between the two continents. Any packet sent on this connection between the two continents will have a roundtrip of at least 130ms (i think this is the right number)

Edvard
Posts: 64
Joined: Mon Mar 10, 2008 12:05 pm

Re: Link cap

Post by Edvard » Wed Mar 19, 2008 11:08 am

I dont think this idea is too bad. I mean sure, I'd loose on it, but if it would shut some people up maybe that'd be worth it. Then again I play just the same way when i'm downloading a movie which slows my connection down to 150-200ms. And i'm sure Snarp would keep his backstab-run technique and maybe find something else than link to blame it on, even though it's obvious that link doesn't matter in many of the fights he turns down. Wouldn't change all too much. Perhaps i'd get a few less kills in bottlenecks and beeing forced to fight indoors a bit more to keep the ratio up, that's all.

Wobbler
Posts: 393
Joined: Mon Feb 25, 2008 10:02 pm

Re: Link cap

Post by Wobbler » Wed Mar 19, 2008 11:30 am

babanovac wrote:That is not true at all. The link difference between US and EU is caused by the fiber link connection between the two continents. Any packet sent on this connection between the two continents will have a roundtrip of at least 130ms (i think this is the right number)
If 1% of the American tax money spent on enriching Haliburton had gone to improving intercontinental infrastructure, Americans could have had near-instant connections to both Japan and Europe.
Politicians are wise and benevolent and will gladly sacrifice themselves for the common good. Anyone who implies that there might exist dishonest politicians is obviously a terrorist who should be locked up indefinitely without a trial.

Pif
Posts: 8
Joined: Mon Mar 17, 2008 7:15 pm

Re: Link cap

Post by Pif » Wed Mar 19, 2008 1:52 pm

Well, here's what this debate boils down to. Two points:

You're not going to find a European that is FOR a standard or minimum link (which would even the playing field by definition).

You're not going to find a American/Aussie/etc that is AGAINST a standard or minimum link.

The end. All talk of "well I want to be fair but don't want to lose my inherently faster reaction time" is foolishness in the face of this truth.

sphinx
Posts: 2
Joined: Sun Mar 09, 2008 11:05 pm

Re: Link cap

Post by sphinx » Wed Mar 19, 2008 3:53 pm

yeah think about how many people quit over the years because they had a bad link, who cares if a couple people who have an uber link fuss about it because they get some 80ms extra lag, try dealing with 200+ constant.

Just relocate the server to the US already :P

Elemmakil
Posts: 88
Joined: Sat Feb 23, 2008 10:03 pm
Location: Massachusetts, United States of America

Re: Link cap

Post by Elemmakil » Wed Mar 19, 2008 4:00 pm

And what's your ping to US website Wobbler? I highly doubt that it's 30 ms or whatever.

130--170 ms is a good number because a person with DSL/cable in the US can get that connection1 Sure, I may be only thinking about myself, but Americans make up the majority of the players.

Rogon
Posts: 158
Joined: Sun Feb 24, 2008 4:49 pm

Re: Link cap

Post by Rogon » Wed Mar 19, 2008 4:13 pm

Elemmakil wrote:130--170 ms is a good number because a person with DSL/cable in the US can get that connection1 Sure, I may be only thinking about myself, but Americans make up the majority of the players.
Source about 50.01%+ of the playerbase being american?

Besides, a link cap would do nothing to improve your link. It would simply mean that everyone would suffer the same. If you think it sucks with a bad link, why do you want it to suck for me too? That's not very nice of you.

Mandor
Posts: 65
Joined: Mon Feb 25, 2008 8:23 pm
Location: Stockholm / Sweden

Re: Link cap

Post by Mandor » Wed Mar 19, 2008 4:59 pm

If you don't know how to look, I guess you could believe the majority online are american.

However, not all .net, .com users are in USA. Many ISPs around the world use those too. I guess around 30% online right now are in USA. I'll check again later tonight.

42% of those online use .com or .net domains though.

Elemmakil
Posts: 88
Joined: Sat Feb 23, 2008 10:03 pm
Location: Massachusetts, United States of America

Re: Link cap

Post by Elemmakil » Wed Mar 19, 2008 5:15 pm

Majortiy apparently means more than 50%, I always thought that it just meant which group was the largest. So instead of majority, replace it with "plurality".

Well at least you would agree with me that the majority of the players have a link over 130 msish?

Locked