Link cap

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Eorberl
Posts: 53
Joined: Sun Feb 24, 2008 12:47 am
Location: Hobart, Australia

Re: Link cap

Post by Eorberl » Thu Mar 20, 2008 12:05 pm

Wobbler wrote:I'm not sure, but I think Ilie would happily supply the remote server source to any coder willing to debug it.
Maybe, but that's not much help, since nobody else is gonna be allowed access to MUME's network code, which would make the debugging process a little difficult I guess.

It is the only way to begin helping the slow linked players, but in the past Ilie has said he doesn't want to fix the server module (though recently he admitted to having a few ideas for it, so maybe all hope is not lost) who knows what will happen. But it's more likely that if those who stand to benefit from it actually make it known they really want this fix then it should carry some more weight and hopefully he'll feel more like doing it.

fragir
Posts: 1
Joined: Thu Mar 20, 2008 11:48 am

Re: Link cap

Post by fragir » Thu Mar 20, 2008 12:12 pm

This idea makes no sense because you can't technically force it on everyone, unless you can force everyone to use the same client with specific functionality to support this.

1. You don't know when the TCP packet is delivered to the other side of the connection. Sure mume server can send ping request (ICMP packet) towards the ip i'm connected from in some intervals. But I can easilly filter this packet out and add some delay to the response on my machine so for the server it would look like I play from 300ms link and not from 30ms ( = easy to avoid). For example, it is possible to implement this as an configurable attribute on the proxy (mapper) so everyone can avoid this "feature".

2. On fast link you have advantage not only that your commands arrive faster to the server, but as well that you receive the information faster then someone on slow link. If you just delay commands internally it will be crap. So even if you know the exact delays you are supposed to add to all incomming/outgoing network packet on every specific connection, you would need quite a lot of relativelly exact timers to delay shitload of packets on the network input/output. (I don't know how is the connection management done in mume, but I guess this woudn't be easy to implement as well, still it will be relativelly easy to avoid, see point 1.)

Nice try, but it will never work like this

Edvard
Posts: 64
Joined: Mon Mar 10, 2008 12:05 pm

Re: Link cap

Post by Edvard » Thu Mar 20, 2008 12:18 pm

Sure Snarp, gac and burn all you want. Regardless of link cap or not, you can always kill me easier then I can kill you. Because you're a wimp and I'm not. You've just chosen link to justify your wimpyness to yourself and others, if link cap were implemented, you'd find some other excuse. I play the same way when i'm on poor link as when i'm on a good link, and i can agree that it's a little harder to get away with poor link.

Eorberl
Posts: 53
Joined: Sun Feb 24, 2008 12:47 am
Location: Hobart, Australia

Re: Link cap

Post by Eorberl » Thu Mar 20, 2008 2:00 pm

Haha, poor link to you is 200-250ms, Edvard. Cute. It's funny that those who have very fast links and seem to think it doesn't matter (true to a certain point, but not at all with the speeds we're talking about in this thread) would be the first ones to quit if they had to play from anything but their current links :)

In short, don't just dismiss link as easily as you did, it has a big influence whether you acknowledge it or not.

Elemmakil
Posts: 88
Joined: Sat Feb 23, 2008 10:03 pm
Location: Massachusetts, United States of America

Re: Link cap

Post by Elemmakil » Thu Mar 20, 2008 5:07 pm

I feel completely ignored :(

No-one read my door thingy?

Snarp
Posts: 39
Joined: Wed Feb 27, 2008 12:09 am

Re: Link cap

Post by Snarp » Fri Mar 21, 2008 2:30 am

Edvard is just a complete twat, Eorberl thats all. He's one of those guys that never admits he overkills/linkless kills/traps/plays stabbers/has a fast link/has the best eq/storeport/charm abuser/sleeper. Basically he's the under dog king. Every victory he has, he's the shit and noone expected him to win. Some people just live in fantasy land and need their links to be anything and will fight to defend their unfair advantage.

I'm perfectly fine with trapping/stabbing/overkilling because it's part of the game. Unlike you. But you don't even play anymore and is no tougher than I on the internetz. So bring it on, u mad?

Thanks Fragir, thats all I wanted to know.

Eorberl
Posts: 53
Joined: Sun Feb 24, 2008 12:47 am
Location: Hobart, Australia

Re: Link cap

Post by Eorberl » Fri Mar 21, 2008 4:18 am

Well, I wouldn't put it quite that strongly. But it annoys me that there are people who say "Yeah I know what bad link is like and it's a little bit harder to get away" after playing from (in this example) 200-250ms for a few minutes then having their link go back to <30ms. Then they often say "yeah link doesn't matter, you're just whiners" but if they had any experience with it they'd know it has a very big influence on the way you play, and severly limits your options.

Few slow linked people know it, but there's a 200ms command limit built in to mume already. So although fast linked players are at an advantage, it's not as bad a some believe. The advantage is mainly in the benefit of seeing and being able to respond to whatever is happening in the room at least ~370ms faster than a slow linked player (If reaction speeds were the same). Slow linked players bank up commands on their link, fast linked players have commands waiting to be executed at the mume end of the connection. Because of this, prespam is the key! If you prespam correctly and quickly, it's possible to execute the same amount of commands as a fast linked player (though it is by no means easy, and it's impossible to play like that all the time because it leaves you further behind in being able to react to anything).

In the land of PK, the ability to react quickly and adapt to changing situations is king!

Even if it were possible, I don't think I'd vote for a link cap because it would most likely mean that a lot of the "scary" players would leave, and that makes the game less populated and more boring. The MUME server module does need to be fixed, and implemented in more than the few places it can be found these days (Estonia, Canada, Germany).

dianos
Posts: 67
Joined: Sat Mar 22, 2008 11:47 pm

Re: Link cap

Post by dianos » Sat Mar 22, 2008 11:53 pm

I don't know if this is a good idea or not. A couple of years ago I was a strong advocate for slowing down fair linked players, but now I'm not as sure.

Just for the record, the main reason I don't play much these days is because of the slow speed of my link compared to others. When enemies enter the room I'm in they can see me and hit me before I see them. If they know I'm in there already, they can walk in and cast a spell and I will not have any time to react. That's so damn unfair.

Alkar
Vala (Mudller)
Posts: 83
Joined: Tue Feb 26, 2008 9:54 pm
Location: The Void
Contact:

Re: Link cap

Post by Alkar » Sun Mar 23, 2008 4:44 am

A few comments from me-land...

1. The server source code will do you absolutely, 100%, no good. It is fundamentally flawed. Trust me on this as I have more experience running one than most people, and I've seen the amount of time it's down due to synchronization issues. That, and in order to change something, you would also need access to the source code on the other side of things, which 99.999% of us will never see. No amount of begging, asking nicely, offering yourselves or praying to Manwe or Sauron will fix this one.

There is a chance that in the future, we will develop a new redirector that will work a lot better than the one I currently run at mume.ca. This requires two things: A plan, and an investment of time by Ilie, who is the only person in a position to write the code.

2. When I was actually a decent player (honest, I was), I had the same link I have today. 120-140ms, maybe 110 on a very good day when the planets were aligned and the tides were out. It didn't stop me from killing people. I'm not alone on this, there are many non-European players who would agree with me.

Speed isn't everything. Tactics are key. You can have the best link known to mankind and if you screw up, you've still screwed up, and you're probably dead.

Of course, all of this would probably be more convincing if someone like Snarf or Ajax said it.

Ilie
Site Admin
Posts: 95
Joined: Sat Feb 23, 2008 9:50 pm
Location: Oslo, Norway

Re: Link cap

Post by Ilie » Sun Mar 23, 2008 10:43 am

Implementing link cap, as in slowing down people with fast links, is not something we want to do.

We would really like to give everyone the best possible links though. The original servers were written for one reason only: Decrease the traffic going to/from epfl.ch (when MUME was still running there). At the current location traffic is no problem at all, so it would make sense to write some new servers that do something very different: Produce the best possible link for players. (The old servers were pretty good at this as well, but they had serious stability issues).

I have some ideas for how to do this right, and I also want to make it totally independent of MUME for several reasons, so if I get some time to meditate properly on it maybe something will show up.
-- Ilie Your friendly site Administrator

Pif
Posts: 8
Joined: Mon Mar 17, 2008 7:15 pm

Re: Link cap

Post by Pif » Sat Mar 29, 2008 7:10 pm

Wobbler wrote:
Elemmakil wrote:Wobbler: 150 ms would be unfair to everyone playing on 200 ms? Well how bout 30 ms compared to 200 ms? Good argument right there.
What I'm saying is that for any link cap to be fair, it would have to be so high it affects every player there is.
I'm really not trying to be rude here, but I can't help but think this next tidbit this is relevant, if it's not, please feel free to explain it to me wobbler, or anyone. I don't think this makes Wobbler a hypocrite, since all he's been saying is that he thinks a link cap would have to be exaggerated to some ungodly amount to be even remotely fair for "everyone". But it does show how a fast linked player instantly notices even a slight delay:

From elvenrunes mmapper2 thread (once again, if this is not relevant or taken SEVERELY out of context please explain):

Post by Wobbler:
"Is it normal to experience 10-20 ms lag while spamming from GH to BWB with the basemap loaded in play mode?
It's like playing in syrup :("



Please let me play in the syrup, cuz that means (from my link) I'm playing in 75% dry cement or something. Once again, of course you can play (somewhat successfully even) on a 150ms+ link and of course a link cap might be a bad idea (or impossible due to network issues far beyond my understanding) but this quote tells me that all those EU linked people saying "link doesn't matter period, not a bit, no sir" are not being really truthful here.

Sarai
Posts: 21
Joined: Wed Mar 26, 2008 8:39 am

Re: Link cap

Post by Sarai » Sun Mar 30, 2008 12:16 am

Round-trip time: 326ms (kernel:356ms) Link options: sack

I'm a poor U.S. player using cable :).

Edvard
Posts: 64
Joined: Mon Mar 10, 2008 12:05 pm

Re: Link cap

Post by Edvard » Tue Apr 01, 2008 6:52 am

Snarp wrote:Edvard is just a complete twat, Eorberl thats all. He's one of those guys that never admits he overkills/linkless kills/traps/plays stabbers/has a fast link/has the best eq/storeport/charm abuser/sleeper. Basically he's the under dog king. Every victory he has, he's the shit and noone expected him to win. Some people just live in fantasy land and need their links to be anything and will fight to defend their unfair advantage.

I'm perfectly fine with trapping/stabbing/overkilling because it's part of the game. Unlike you. But you don't even play anymore and is no tougher than I on the internetz. So bring it on, u mad?

Thanks Fragir, thats all I wanted to know.
I never admit? In what fantasyworld do I try to cover that I have a fast link or that I roadkill newbies and aussies in groups of 3? I trap - often with even numbers but with occassional overkills. I dont linklesskill because I haven't found you linkless yet. I cover that I play anaconda? Its in Ethne's whois that i storeport. Charm abuse? Whats that?. Sleeper? Whats that?... You're talking out of your ass especially when saying I dont play anymore because I play every day.

Snarp
Posts: 39
Joined: Wed Feb 27, 2008 12:09 am

Re: Link cap

Post by Snarp » Thu Apr 03, 2008 12:42 am

Then why cry and moan about lame players when you're one of them. You are a hypocrite.

Edvard
Posts: 64
Joined: Mon Mar 10, 2008 12:05 pm

Re: Link cap

Post by Edvard » Thu Apr 03, 2008 11:06 am

Not that I believe I "cry and moan" very much, i'm usually pretty indifferent when it comes to mume, but there are always shades of grey. No one is perfect, I'm certainly not, but I do distinguish between what I consider genuin lame behaviours and temporary lame actions. I think i've found a pretty good balance, like many others. Then there's always the extremes who, in my opinion, contribute to a less enjoyable atmosphere on MUME. I must agree though, it's always tempting to think "AH fuck it! everyone's lame anyway" and just join the club. Specially in times like this, after I've eaten the most boring deaths and lost all eq on all chars ;) Oh and there goes your "always the best eq" argument gig. I don't agree that its hypocracy though for me to say that you're a wimp, because that means I'm as wimpy as you, and I know i'm not.

Anyway this quote by you "I'm perfectly fine with trapping/stabbing/overkilling because it's part of the game. Unlike you." makes perfect sense though, and I've always seen you as one of those people who claim to be so brave despite the obvious. If you're one of those "I admit im lame and dont care what you think" people, you got my support. Go girl.

Aglach
Posts: 33
Joined: Fri Feb 29, 2008 6:59 pm

Re: Link cap

Post by Aglach » Thu Apr 03, 2008 1:29 pm

Jeez just close this thread, already.

Edvard
Posts: 64
Joined: Mon Mar 10, 2008 12:05 pm

Re: Link cap

Post by Edvard » Thu Apr 03, 2008 1:52 pm

Aglach wrote:Jeez just close this thread, already.
I agree. Im just bored :roll:

Snarp
Posts: 39
Joined: Wed Feb 27, 2008 12:09 am

Re: Link cap

Post by Snarp » Fri Apr 04, 2008 3:57 am

Temporary lameness, lol. Skippy's only temporarily lame because he's only sunripped one troll. But he's found a good balance.

Doesn't work does it?

(I bet Edvard doesn't understand and if he can he won't be able to prove he's only temporarily lame).

Gothmog
Vala (Mudller)
Posts: 259
Joined: Sun Feb 24, 2008 10:46 pm
Location: Stockholm, Sweden

Re: Link cap

Post by Gothmog » Fri Apr 04, 2008 7:39 pm

Flame war alert. *click*

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