What would you change?

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Rogon
Posts: 158
Joined: Sun Feb 24, 2008 4:49 pm

Re: What would you change?

Post by Rogon »

Jahara wrote: Setting a level cap is a possibility, but this is merely a problem for PvE players since they have no amusement for continuing play after level 25. PvP players will always have the warpoint system for their amusement so levels aren't nearly as important there.
Since you're not speaking from experience of reaching the level cap and only having war points to continue playing for, I thought I'd jump in and contribute alittle to the discussion!

It's boring as hell to only have war points to play for. War points decay. When you play you want to see "lasting" improvements to your character as well. Even if levels meant even less than they do now (say 1/25) that would be greatly preferable to a cap or levels that simply meant nothing at all.

If you look at other characters who reached level 100, I think that you'd find that even though they were all active players up to the point of reaching 100, all but two of them retired almost immediately upon reaching 100.
Caerroil
Bug Hunter
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Location: Sweden

Re: What would you change?

Post by Caerroil »

Someone with some experience playing WoW should respond to Jahara, but I will add what I know.
While getting to the level cap in WoW isn't nearly as hard as it is to do the same in MUME it is far harder than it is to gain level 25 in MUME, with harder I mostly mean requires more time. From some quick research it seems like level 70 in WoW is comparable to level 50 in MUME in terms of time required to get there. At level 50 you are quite competitive with pretty much anyone else (even the level 100s, though they do have an edge it is far from as decisive as even a 5 level difference is in WoW). Now, after getting to level 70 in WoW you need to spend A LOT more time to get good enough eq to make you competitive while in MUME a few hours will get you enough eq to be competitive.
WoW and MUME are two very different games, but saying that WoW is much easier to just jump in and become competitive with long time players is very wrong. What WoW is, is that it is easier for casual players who DON'T care about being competitive but rather just run their own race, something which is harder in MUME due to the PvP system (and to a lesser extent the penalties for mob-death). Those players would get stomped in the ground, just as new players are in MUME, if server-wide PvP was allowed in WoW. Though in MUME those players DO have some kind of chance (due to the world representation), even if it is small, as far as I know they would have no chance at all to get away in WoW.

IMO setting a level cap at level 25 would quickly kill MUME.
Jahara
Posts: 228
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Re: What would you change?

Post by Jahara »

Both of you bring up some good points, but let me just say that the difference in levels and gear is VERY apparent in WoW. +/- 3 levels in WoW spells death for the other person as well as +/- 2 levels when it comes to their gear. What I'm really trying to say is that after getting to level 70 it only takes about a week of playtime to get a basic set of capable blue dungeon/epic badge/pvp gear which will allow you to compete. Pretty much any person who has leveled an alt on WoW can agree with this.

I guess the better point to argue is: is MUME's approach right? Should we replace the "gain" of levels with something else since there is no constantly raised ceiling?
Rogon
Posts: 158
Joined: Sun Feb 24, 2008 4:49 pm

Re: What would you change?

Post by Rogon »

I would like to see a remortal system, for several reasons such as it makes a level cap irrelevant and it would result in many more low-levels xping. It would also make it possible to make your character more unique.

Example on how a remort system could work (and im not saying this is the best way - or even a good way. its just an example):

When you have 50 million xp on your character, you can trade it for a permanent +1 to a stat of your choice, and lose 50m xp. When you do that, your xp requirement to level is increased by 100%.

And then some limitations to keep it reasonable;

You can only increase any stat twice through remorting. Each time you remort, the xp cost is increased by 10 million xp. You need to be level 25+ to remort. Of course remorting would not reset your trophy in any way.
Andróg
Posts: 204
Joined: Tue Apr 15, 2008 10:10 pm

Re: What would you change?

Post by Andróg »

Rogon, I suggested something similar (on ER) some 5 years ago when the first characters after Norsu started reaching level100 and I was flamed for suggesting something important to very few players while it'd take far too much time to code it. :P

But yes, the idea itself definitely has potential. I've thought about it like this:

Level100 characters have a chance of doing a "remort/rebirth". After that they will be reset to lvl1 and will keep their existing trophy. As gains they could have... lets say... 20 (25?) extra creation points. Then you can add those to your "reference stats" and the new stats will act as your new reference stats. Another way could be through practice points instead. +10% (so it'd still vary for races) prac points per level. So a reborn whitie who reaches lvl25 again would have 25 more practice points than a normal whitie.

This way the game could still be a challenge for those who have reached the current cap level, while there could also be benefits to it. And I'm sure that players who have reached lvl100 will figure out how to exp their lvl1-s back to lvl30+ too, even with the old trophy.
Fallujah
Posts: 2
Joined: Thu May 22, 2008 9:46 am

Re: What would you change?

Post by Fallujah »

Rogon, was it the fact you couldn't progress (ie no more levels to get) or the fact your character stopped improving?

What I was more trying to get at was having unlimited levels, but them not making any difference to the char. So you can get level 100000 if it takes your fancy but you won't be any more powerful than a lvl 25.

But yes, I'd be happy enough if the improvement was 1/25th of current or something.
Rogon
Posts: 158
Joined: Sun Feb 24, 2008 4:49 pm

Re: What would you change?

Post by Rogon »

Fallujah wrote:Rogon, was it the fact you couldn't progress (ie no more levels to get) or the fact your character stopped improving?
A bit of both perhaps, you just run into a wall and that's it.

What I can say for sure though is that more levels that do nothing couldn't make me start playing the character again. But ways to improve it (even if not by gaining more levels) might.
pinion
Posts: 33
Joined: Wed May 28, 2008 4:02 am

Re: What would you change?

Post by pinion »

I would revamp some zones. Specifically some of Eregion, Dunland, and the Ford area. I would add more bottlenecks and less wide open 4x4 rooms for 40 rooms. Those large open spaces absolutely suck for PK. I would also revamp the Troll warrens and move it down closer to ABR, or slightly west towards LB. Current warrens location really promotes the "run to ford, sit for 4 ticks, run home" style play which sucks.
Lindonon
Posts: 7
Joined: Sat May 24, 2008 6:55 pm

Re: What would you change?

Post by Lindonon »

Hidden exits.
I understand hidden exits to a hideout or some not-so-easy-to-find-path through dense foliage.
But hidden exits in the middle of the field? 'open muddypath' or whatsoever to go down? Don't get the meaning of it!
And I also don't understand why almost all hidden exits must have unique (long) names 'tangledshrubbery' or something like that.
Seems kinda pointless and boring.
Lindonon
Posts: 7
Joined: Sat May 24, 2008 6:55 pm

Re: What would you change?

Post by Lindonon »

pinion wrote:I would revamp some zones. Specifically some of Eregion, Dunland, and the Ford area. I would add more bottlenecks and less wide open 4x4 rooms for 40 rooms. Those large open spaces absolutely suck for PK. I would also revamp the Troll warrens and move it down closer to ABR, or slightly west towards LB. Current warrens location really promotes the "run to ford, sit for 4 ticks, run home" style play which sucks.
I came from Rohan encampment to Bree recently and there were at least 4 bottlenecks on this road (I have to use bridges because I can't afford to lose my mount, will be out of moves in no time).
I don't think it's too few bottlenecks, rather it's too much.
Of course I ran into two orcs in Eregion. Of course (being a newbie) I spammed towards Bree and of course the orcs catched me at the next bottleneck (swamp/bridge NE of Tharbad). Luckily they didn't bother to chase me for long and I managed to get away eventually on very low moves swimming south over the wide river. If they had followed me I wouldn't have had any moves left to get away.
My point is: Make the roads wider so it would be safer for midlevel chars to travel.
There would be less newbiekilling and if you want to fight go pick at someone your own size. You know where to find them.
Belamir
Posts: 32
Joined: Tue Apr 08, 2008 11:28 pm

Re: What would you change?

Post by Belamir »

If you want to travel to potentially dangerous areas, you need to accept that there will potentially be danger. The problem I have with making things more 'newbie-PK-escapable' is that this generally also makes it ridiculously harder to kill a half-experienced player. One of the joys of MUME to me, at least, is that if I leave the 'safe' areas I might actually be in danger. This seems like a trivially true statement, but I've been surprised at how many times it's been false, when playing other games.

As for what I'd change, I'd like to see more intelligent environments (i.e. mobiles, super mobiles), balanced with slightly less severe penalties for a mob death. PK is undoubtedly one of the main focuses of this game, but the PvE here has become outdated and simple. (Also, arguably, drawing more people to the PvE would lead to more non-consensual PvP, PKers jumping SMOBers and so forth, which I know a lot of people enjoy).
Caerroil
Bug Hunter
Posts: 214
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Location: Sweden

Re: What would you change?

Post by Caerroil »

Like Belamir I don't think it should be made easier for new players to survive, I would much rather see them learning the game faster/better. Through the help from more experienced players, available online resources (the official MUME Wiki, or any of the unofficial sites available), mappers or ingame resources (guides or whatever) or something else. What of what I mentioned is lacking at the moment, in quantity or quality, I don't really know and the only real way to learn that would be to ask the new players. So, all you new players who read and comment on these boards: What would you need to enable you to learn the game better/faster?


One suggestion for new players trying out any of the available mappers: After you have learned the absolute basics in the game try starting to map on your own from scratch. While having a map of an area can be a help there really isn't anything that is better than having walked around in it and mapped it yourself, and it doesn't really take that much time once you have figured out the quirks of your mapper of choice and gotten it to start mapping correctly.
pinion
Posts: 33
Joined: Wed May 28, 2008 4:02 am

Re: What would you change?

Post by pinion »

Does anyone have some links to some good mappers?
ciúin
Posts: 15
Joined: Wed Apr 30, 2008 2:04 pm
Location: Leipzig
Contact:

Re: What would you change?

Post by ciúin »

pinion wrote:Does anyone have some links to some good mappers?
pencil + paper.
Jahara
Posts: 228
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Location: Indiana, USA
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Re: What would you change?

Post by Jahara »

pinion wrote:Does anyone have some links to some good mappers?
You people should honestly read the wiki more often: http://mume.org/wiki/index.php/Mapper
Aximander
Posts: 3
Joined: Sat Jun 07, 2008 2:33 am

Re: What would you change?

Post by Aximander »

Some of these have been mentioned, just adding to the consensus:

1) Lower penalty for mobdeath.
2) 24/7 Shops
- Newbies spend a lot of time trying to sell scavenged pelts or buy flasks of oil, and having to wait on shops is extremely frustrating. I've
tried to introduce people to the game who have quit within a couple days because of such frustration.
- 24/7 shops will not reduce game "immersion." Can you even imagine what such a thing would look like? "Omg, I just sold a dagger to this shopkeeper at, like, three in the morning! That's totally unrealistic, my illusion of being in Middle-Earth is shattered! I am now starkly aware that I am merely playing a silly game, why am I squandering my time in such illusory endeavors? Flinging Dungeons & Dragons spells at orcs seemed totally Tolkien, but selling a dagger at night GOES TOO FAR!"
3) Remove Travel Points.
- TPs are just a "band-aid" solution to a game design problem: Lots of zones exist with no in-game reason for most players to visit them, so TPs are an attempt to compel use of those zones. Players need a much more fun and "in character" reason to visit places than just making a number in their "stat" go down. The trophy system helps this problem, as it rewards exploration and travel with increased xp efficiency. To completely replace TPs, other travel incentives need to exist, such as finding minor equipment upgrades. Experienced players who start new characters already know where to run to find a hidden shield, a quiver with some arrows, an fgc, etc., and in so doing they both 1) take care of TP requirements with no specific effort, and 2) make use of many game zones. The fact that they are doing (2) means that (1) doesn't even need to exist for these players.
New players, however, usually get equipment by killing the few mobs they know have loot or pelts, selling that loot, and buying upgrades from shops. They'd love to be able to travel thirty zones and pick up smooth black boots and a metal wall shield for free, but they don't know where these things are. Therefore, they stick to what they know, then spam randomly around in frustration to fill TP requirements. The TP system makes them -go- to remote zones, but not -play- in them. The trophy system and equipment hunting removes the need for TPs for experienced players, the problem is that the eq hunting currently doesn't/can't motivate newbies to explore. So what is my suggestion?
Increase the amount of basic/mid-grade equipment that loads hidden, on the ground, or on weak mobs in every zone, and give newbies some access to information on where this equipment is. For example, have an "old adventurer" NPC in towns that newbies can ask "advice shield." The NPC could choose a random world-load shield and tell the newbie something like, "Well, I remember when I was travelling as a mercenary hired by a group of dwarves, a funny thing happened when we were camping at the end of the Ancient Broken Road,..." and then give a reason why a metal wall shield might be located in that area, and general, but followable, information on how to find it. It'd take some work, but it would be so nice to see TPs gone forever, and newbies would have a real reason and to not only visit but to -learn- new areas, and have a method for doing so.
vurv
Posts: 5
Joined: Mon Jun 02, 2008 5:53 pm

Re: What would you change?

Post by vurv »

I was wondering if it was possible to balance the slow linked players with an increase in DB bonus? Let's say for every reduction of 50ms link speed a 2% (or whatever is fair) db bonus is gained. There could even be a menu selection of bonuses to choose from depending on your link speed and your character design.
Lindonon
Posts: 7
Joined: Sat May 24, 2008 6:55 pm

Re: What would you change?

Post by Lindonon »

Aximander wrote: 2) 24/7 Shops
As previously said it is good for the newbies that shops are closed at night as it is possible to ask questions from experienced players at that time.
Unrealistic is, that although shops are closed you can still walk in and have shopkeeper speak to you.
Shops should be _closed_ at night. Players should be thrown out and doors closed. Mended items can be delivered to the players if they wait in the next room.
ghalad
Posts: 20
Joined: Tue Mar 04, 2008 7:42 am
Location: United Kingdom

Re: What would you change?

Post by ghalad »

Things I would like to change/add: (no particular order)

1. A hall of rememberance for sundead trolls over level 40 are displayed (perhaps off Grinders room).
2. Reroll/limited reroll period reduced (8months and 4months respectively)
3. Allow the dyeing of metals/leathers ie Black leathers, blue chaimail....i think this will add an element to roleplaying.
4. Either add another Foy type place or move the current one out of the middle of PK central, I know slow linked players would rather mob and lose a level
than risk going to the current foy area.
5. Create improved items from geographic locations, ie improved saddles from Rohan, better quality pipe weed from the shire, hardened bolts from Blue
Mountains etc etc (I have plenty of ideas if anyone interested).
6. Safe place for zorcs to rent further south (I like the thought that ABR tower/brolg tower etc could pop zorc).
7. Dual wielding with appropriate maluses ie (OB/2 with off hand malus).
A happy person may not have the best of everything, but makes the best of everything.
coyote
Posts: 22
Joined: Tue May 20, 2008 8:59 pm

Re: What would you change?

Post by coyote »

I'd like to see slightly extended corpse rot times on mobdeaths. It's very frustrating to spend 2-3 ticks in Valinor resting, pray to the nearest city, beg a lantern, run near your body, rest full so you don't mobdie, and have your corpse already be decayed. Maybe just have bodies last for level * 2 ticks, with a minimum of 24 ticks so newbie corpses don't rot before they get out of Valinor.

Nothing extreme like corpses used to be in the old old MUME days, but 24 minutes is really too short to reach your body if it's not immediately near a prayable town or if the mobs on it are anything resembling dangerous.

Of course, I'm just bitchy because I died 2 rooms inside Mirkwood (trapped by roots and ran out of mvs trying to flee away), and my corpse was rotted by the time I could get to it, and I really moved as fast as possible and only stopped to rest moves and hps before diving in after it. :(
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