Negative Effects of Cross-Class Practicing

Old MUME discussions.

Moderator: Builders

Forum rules
The posts in this forum should be related to MUME.
Locked
Vortenos
Posts: 44
Joined: Tue Apr 08, 2008 12:53 pm
Location: Wisconsin, United States

Negative Effects of Cross-Class Practicing

Post by Vortenos » Mon Apr 21, 2008 4:11 pm

How does the negative effects of cross-class practicing work? What actually happens? How much can you train in another class before it hurts you?

I ask this trying to figure out how much weapon skill and cross-class spells I can do. I see posts warning of prac'ing too much, but no description of the penalty.
All extremists should be shot.

Azazello
Posts: 119
Joined: Sun Feb 24, 2008 12:09 pm

Re: Negative Effects of Cross-Class Practicing

Post by Azazello » Mon Apr 21, 2008 5:49 pm

Most things are 'decided' using your effective level.

You effective level has classes though, something like mage, cleric, shaman, warrior, thief
Each char has X amount of pracs and real level.

You put your pracs in skills and depending on your stats, skills difficulty you get soem output.

When you put pracs in some class, your effective levels change. For example you start as noone. Put 200 out of 300 pracs in warrior and 100 pracs in mage. Ignoring the skills levels and difficulty we can say that you are 2/3 warrior and 1/3 mage.

This means your char of level 55 == real level 28, is something like level 19-20 warrior and level 8-9 mage.

The effect of your spells for example is then something like: % in the skill * effective_level_factor.

This means everything matters. You race,your stats, your max possible pracs in certain skills, your total pracs and most important the way you put your pracs!

Correct me, i bet i made some mistakes and forgot something.

Caerroil
Bug Hunter
Posts: 214
Joined: Sun Feb 24, 2008 12:25 pm
Location: Sweden

Re: Negative Effects of Cross-Class Practicing

Post by Caerroil » Mon Apr 21, 2008 6:44 pm

How the penalty manifests itself is "simple", pracs in all non class A skills/spells will make your skills/spells in class A less good (it will also affect your OB, hps, moves and mana which can be good or bad depending on what your main class is and what you pracced).
How big the effect will be is a much more complex question to answer. It depends on what your main class is, what class the skill/spell you prac outside your main class is, its level and how many pracs you put in it and the total amount of pracs you have.

Code: Select all

     Warrior
   /        \
Scout       Cleric
   \        /
      Mage
The further away in the above figure a class is the more effect pracs will have on the original class. (The two closest classes doesn't have an equal effect either, scout pracs affect warriors less than cleric pracs for example.)

Regarding your specific situation where you start out as a caster and want to get some warrior skills and cross-class spells: Some 5-10 pracs in warrior skills won't have a big effect on legend level and it is very common to have around 30 pracs in cross-caster spells. Staying as pure as possible does have advantages, until you reach really high levels, but the added versatility is generally considered to far outweigh the negative effects of not being 100% pure. (Casters with 5 pracs in warrior skills and 30 in cross-caster class are generally considered to be pure casters.)

Edit: If you want to test something don't be afraid to do so, MUMEs prac system is highly forgiving since you can get your pracs back by doing "train off <skill/spell>" and after some time you will have forgotten all about that skill/spell and regained the practice sessions you had spent in it. This enables you to test out things without any risk of ruining the character for more than a few days or perhaps a week (if you spent a lot of pracs in a hard to learn skill) while pracs decay.

Vortenos
Posts: 44
Joined: Tue Apr 08, 2008 12:53 pm
Location: Wisconsin, United States

Re: Negative Effects of Cross-Class Practicing

Post by Vortenos » Mon Apr 21, 2008 7:31 pm

Excellent answers! Thank you.
All extremists should be shot.

Wobbler
Posts: 393
Joined: Mon Feb 25, 2008 10:02 pm

Re: Negative Effects of Cross-Class Practicing

Post by Wobbler » Mon Apr 21, 2008 7:37 pm

The effects of a skill drop also depends on the class of the skill .
A 5% decrease in a weapon skill gives -1 ob regardless of level, which equals the effect of losing 0.2 effective levels as a warrior and can be ignored.
A 5% decrease in a spell at level 25 equals the effect of losing 1.25 effective levels. At level 50, it equals the effect of losing 1.375 effective levels.

The effects of endurance, sneak and backstab are level-dependant; I am uncertain about bash.
Politicians are wise and benevolent and will gladly sacrifice themselves for the common good. Anyone who implies that there might exist dishonest politicians is obviously a terrorist who should be locked up indefinitely without a trial.

Elestir
Posts: 231
Joined: Sat Feb 23, 2008 11:47 pm
Location: Olomouc, Czech Republic
Contact:

Re: Negative Effects of Cross-Class Practicing

Post by Elestir » Tue Apr 22, 2008 8:33 pm

Caerroil wrote:

Code: Select all

     Warrior
   /        \
Scout       Cleric
   \        /
      Mage
This picture is bit misleading. Following table gives better idea about the "distances", but it is only a rough approximation.

For whities:

Code: Select all

          Warrior   Thief    Cleric    Mage
Warrior      1       1/2      1/3      1/4
Thief       1/2       1       1/4      1/3
Cleric      1/3      1/4       1       1/2
Mage        1/4      1/3      1/2       1
For darkies:

Code: Select all

          Warrior   Scout   Shaman
Warrior      1       1/2      1/3
Scout       1/2       1       1/3
Shaman      1/3      1/3       1

Caerroil
Bug Hunter
Posts: 214
Joined: Sun Feb 24, 2008 12:25 pm
Location: Sweden

Re: Negative Effects of Cross-Class Practicing

Post by Caerroil » Wed Apr 23, 2008 7:47 am

An important thing to consider when it comes to multi-classing is how dependant on a high knowledge a skill/spell is to work properly. Some skills more or less only work if you have a very high knowledge in them, skills like sneak and backstab will be quite poor with less than 101% in them and even 101% won't be good. Then there are some skills that depend relatively little on the knowledge, like weaponskills where you get +20 OB from 100% in them and +10 OB from 50%.
Another thing that is a big part in deciding if a particular combination of classes is viable are the stats needed for such a combination. Classes with similar stat requirements will obviously be easier to combine while classes with very different stat requirements will be much harder.

The above gives a few common combinations that work well (scout+warrior, mage/cleric+warrior, cleric+mage), some that work ok (warrior+mage, scout+mage, warrior+mage+cleric) with some effort and some that more or less doesn't work at all (scout+cleric). Some combinations seem unlikely to work from the figure/table in the posts above but due to combining skills/spells that doesn't require high knowledge and decently compatible stats they do work quite well, mage+warrior is one of those and the most common combo.
What I mean with combo above isn't a warrior with bob or a cleric with some missile but rather a combination of the main abilities of the classes. Just adding one skill/spell can at times be much easier, when the skill/spell works even with a low knowledge in it.

Irileyh
Posts: 9
Joined: Wed Mar 19, 2008 9:08 pm
Contact:

Re: Negative Effects of Cross-Class Practicing

Post by Irileyh » Fri Apr 25, 2008 6:25 pm

Most people say that cleric-scouts don't work in the slightest, but I tested it out a bit with Syd. It isn't really the best at all, but with +4 attack at level 35, i solo'd Muranog by blinding/stabbing. It wasn't worth the regen though. But! It is possible!
10% skill, 100% awesome.
Foul Pukes : Bir Glare Syd Wave Squints, and a few extra.
Noble Scum : Boddah Loch Gâl Mathers Irileyh, and a few more extra.

morholt
Posts: 1
Joined: Wed Mar 19, 2008 1:29 am

Re: Negative Effects of Cross-Class Practicing

Post by morholt » Tue Apr 29, 2008 1:11 pm

well, if you put stats more aggressive for cleric kind it would even work better ;-)

Maulpaw
Posts: 10
Joined: Tue Mar 04, 2008 9:47 pm

Re: Negative Effects of Cross-Class Practicing

Post by Maulpaw » Tue Apr 29, 2008 6:46 pm

My thief pracced i think 8 cure serious and 12 remove poison or maybe exchange those numbers. Anyways. I think my backstab went from 100 to 95, and i'd say i notice quite the difference. So I am praccing off some spells.

Maulpaw
Posts: 10
Joined: Tue Mar 04, 2008 9:47 pm

Re: Negative Effects of Cross-Class Practicing

Post by Maulpaw » Wed Apr 30, 2008 8:41 am

For all you who don't know how effective 'train off' is I decayed 12 pracs in about 20 hours. I decayed all my remove poison and a great deal of cure serious that i was still using. Probably some parry too.

Orix
Posts: 17
Joined: Sat Feb 23, 2008 11:35 pm
Location: Ljubljana, Slovenia

Re: Negative Effects of Cross-Class Practicing

Post by Orix » Wed Apr 30, 2008 9:24 am

Well that depends. From what I experienced it is quicker for a warrior to decay non-warrior skills. It would take some time to train off a superb trained warrior skill, but it would be much quicker to train off cures etc.
Artificial Intelligence is no match for Natural Stupidity.

Aximander
Posts: 3
Joined: Sat Jun 07, 2008 2:33 am

Re: Negative Effects of Cross-Class Practicing

Post by Aximander » Sat Jun 07, 2008 2:34 am

The "class distance" formula is still in effect? I remember in the past (Mume 6 and before?) a warrior required 4 pracs in a magespell to get the same progress as 1 prac by a mage, 2 pracs in a thief skill to get the same progress as a thief, etc., but thought that the concept of class distance had disappeared with removal of pre-selected classes. So currently cross-class pracs affect skill percentages differently depending on the classes involved?

I learn something new every day!

Caerroil
Bug Hunter
Posts: 214
Joined: Sun Feb 24, 2008 12:25 pm
Location: Sweden

Re: Negative Effects of Cross-Class Practicing

Post by Caerroil » Sat Jun 07, 2008 8:01 am

Yes, there is a version of the "class distance" formula in effect, though it is more complex now since the difficulty of the skill/spell also has an effect. But yes, for every class skills/spells from other classes has varying effect on the original class.

Numi
Posts: 12
Joined: Mon May 11, 2009 6:56 pm

Re: Negative Effects of Cross-Class Practicing

Post by Numi » Sat May 16, 2009 6:49 pm

Quick clarification: does cross-training more difficult skills dilute prime class more or less than less difficult skills?

Elestir
Posts: 231
Joined: Sat Feb 23, 2008 11:47 pm
Location: Olomouc, Czech Republic
Contact:

Re: Negative Effects of Cross-Class Practicing

Post by Elestir » Sun May 17, 2009 3:37 pm

It should be only about number of practices spent in other guilds. After all "more difficult" skills usually need more practice sessions to spend on them to be learned well enough.

dunmir
Posts: 5
Joined: Fri Mar 14, 2008 3:42 pm

Re: Negative Effects of Cross-Class Practicing

Post by dunmir » Sat Oct 24, 2009 4:05 am

So a question lets say ive got my cleric, and ive got a few mage skills armour, shield, det,block,chant,charm so about 53 pracs how badly do you think it would hurt my cleric skills which is mostly max and would my mage skills be usefull at level 30? aka can I charm eagle and lion?

Locked