Scout changes

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ghalad
Posts: 20
Joined: Tue Mar 04, 2008 7:42 am
Location: United Kingdom

Scout changes

Post by ghalad » Mon Jun 30, 2008 6:26 pm

Will the management please revert the changes they have carried out to scouts. The loss of this class (and the class HAS died), love it or hate it has caused massive imbalance in the rest of the game, wizards and clerics are ruling the warlord listings with little fear, they just nuke warriors to death. Characters such as Rael and Urzog created the balance and completed the circle. Scouts cant enter closeables any more. because they know they will definately die. My scout is level 32 and I now feel that all he is good for is stabbing willow. I have experimented with the changes, maxed escape etc etc but this character is still missing that all important 'first punch' that made him fun to play solo.

At least offer a stat rerole to those scouts we have left if you are not going to alter the changes. How many scouts are in the warlord listings? how many are online? everyone is waiting for the promised balance to be restored......
A happy person may not have the best of everything, but makes the best of everything.

Belamir
Posts: 32
Joined: Tue Apr 08, 2008 11:28 pm

Re: Scout changes

Post by Belamir » Mon Jun 30, 2008 10:23 pm

He's missing that "first punch" ?

I thought the scout changes destroyed a scout's ability to fight when their presence is known, and did not affect that "first backstab" opening?

If you honestly want management to reconsider a change, you're going to have to do better than this sort of vague, whiny, (and contradictory?) posting. Extensive discussion about the pros and cons of the scout changes have happened. I'm not sure why you're not adding your request to one of these threads, but if you want to create a new thread on this topic without providing any clear reasoning or supporting examples for your request, at least reference those postings that have actually done that dirty work.

Think about your request for a reroll. How often has this actually happened from MUME VII onwards? What spurred such a decision each time? Does this case actually seem significant enough to warrant one (taking into account the promise of future balancing changes - why should they provide a reroll now, only to have to deal with players demanding the same thing to "revert" their scouts once future balances are made?) Classes are very fluid here. Would it actually be easy or feasible to limit rerolls to "scouts" only? I'm sure you'd "like" a reroll (hell, I'd "like" a reroll for my mage), but would a reroll actually be justified?

In short, think before you post. I can tell you with absolute confidence, from my own experiences dealing with and participating in managements in MUME and in similar MUDs, that this sort of posting will get you nowhere.

Caerroil
Bug Hunter
Posts: 214
Joined: Sun Feb 24, 2008 12:25 pm
Location: Sweden

Re: Scout changes

Post by Caerroil » Tue Jul 01, 2008 12:25 am

Belamir did a very good job of commenting on most of your post, so I am only going to address this apparent "massive imbalance" you have noticed with "wizards and clerics ruling the warlord listings". Out of the 20 characters on the warlords lists 10 are warriors, 2 are scouts and 8 are casters (that is wizards and clerics). So if anything casters are slightly underrepresented, scouts are underrepresented while warriors are highly overrepresented. If you had only claimed that scouts were underrepresented I wouldn't really have disagreed much, though it very much goes in waves what kind of characters populate the warlords lists (though warriors tend to dominate it) and it isn't always due to changes in power balance between classes but rather plain randomness most of the time. But I just can't see where all these casters, who apparently are destroying enemies to the left and right almost without any risks to themselves, are.

If you don't want to play your scout as a scout until some future changes restores it to a position of your liking you can always reprac it as a defence warrior, something all but scout-casters should be able to do without any problems and at times even with very good results.

ghalad
Posts: 20
Joined: Tue Mar 04, 2008 7:42 am
Location: United Kingdom

Re: Scout changes

Post by ghalad » Tue Jul 01, 2008 8:21 am

I did not intend this post to be vague or whiny, my intent was to highlight a problem I saw with the changes to the scout class. I have attempted various way to compensate for the changes but now (through player testing) believe the class has suffered a sever blow as a result.

I attempted to highlight the fact that the number of scouts online has reduced to almost zero with many players retiring there scouts until the ‘promised balancing’ had taken place. If I could find a suitable thread to have added my thoughts to I would have done, I couldn’t so therefore created my own.

As both Caeroil and you have stated, why the reroll? A scout can be rerolled to a defensive warrior quite easily? Speaking personally, this does not apply to me and therefore I must presume that it affects others in the same way. So why not?

You want to maintain a player base you have to keep the client happy, I do not think the management believed that the changes would cause this much imbalance or that the promised game balancing would take so long, either way it is my belief that it has and the fact remains people have stopped playing scout.
Belamir wrote: In short, think before you post. I can tell you with absolute confidence, from my own experiences dealing with and participating in managements in MUME and in similar MUDs, that this sort of posting will get you nowhere.
Lastly this comment infuriated me, Belamir this is a forum, which means that I can express my opinions on game related topics, your response is to flame the way I do it? Just because you do not have success, it does not mean we should not keep trying. The management can only fix a problem if we continue to make them aware.
A happy person may not have the best of everything, but makes the best of everything.

Elestir
Posts: 231
Joined: Sat Feb 23, 2008 11:47 pm
Location: Olomouc, Czech Republic
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Re: Scout changes

Post by Elestir » Tue Jul 01, 2008 11:17 am

I will maybe repeat myself, but I also agree the changes to sneak did more bad than good. I've recently thought about the problems of scouts:
1. in order to fight, scout needs to be nearly as sneaky and as quick as he was before the change
2. when fleeing, sneak gives scout perhaps unbalanced advantage over othe classes (often you cant even flush him out as he sneaks through your room)

So maybe all we need is more than 1 way of sneaking, maybe we need sneak quick and sneak thorough, etc. Quick sneak would be quick, easy to flush and little bit unreliable (ideal for use in combat), thorough sneak would be slow, hard to flush without the help of track and more reliable (ideal for backstabbing - but the actual backstab phase would be performed in more flushable mode of course). Maybe the current nosneak could be changed into forced quick sneak as well, and the duration could increase a bit... What do you think?

Belamir
Posts: 32
Joined: Tue Apr 08, 2008 11:28 pm

Re: Scout changes

Post by Belamir » Wed Jul 02, 2008 7:24 pm

You haven't really addressed any of the points I brought up, Ghalad, and I see no reason to repeat myself.

Your complaint about not having found a suitable thread to place your post in would be convincing if you had not posted in that thread already.

Perhaps I can refresh your memory?

viewtopic.php?f=2&t=390

Hint: most people like to follow any and all discussion in a thread that they have created themselves. Even the administrative staff. You've no reason to assume, if this is indeed what you assumed, that just because you would be posting at the tail end of an already-long thread, that it wouldn't get read. In fact, because the administrators actually have the power to close threads when they feel they have outlived their usefulness, the fact that this thread has not been closed should suggest to you that it still has the same chance to be monitored as any other thread in this forum.

And I really could care less if you get angry with me. What I do care about is that you read, got angry about, and even quoted a passage of mine without seeming to understand the point I was trying to make to you. I'm not going to repeat that point, either; it's already been made, and is sitting there awaiting your re-reading and eventual understanding.

And to clarify something I haven't hinted at yet: I do entirely agree with your sentiment. I have a scout as well that I (was) quite fond of. I'm eagerly awaiting the promised "future balancing," although it's made a bit easier for me in that I'm a largely inactive player for the time being.

Now, if you can understand why I can agree with you, but still post what I've posted in this thread, then you might be on the right path to make a useful contribution to this situation.

pinion
Posts: 33
Joined: Wed May 28, 2008 4:02 am

Re: Scout changes

Post by pinion » Tue Jul 08, 2008 5:59 am

I don't even play scouts and dislike these changes. I don't see scouts anymore in PK, and while that is nice for me, it does make the game more bland overall. I guess someone in management ate one too many backstabs and implemented this.

Belamir
Posts: 32
Joined: Tue Apr 08, 2008 11:28 pm

Re: Scout changes

Post by Belamir » Tue Jul 08, 2008 10:52 pm

A perfectly logical assumption, Pinion, as the changes encourage "stab-and-run" scouts and hurt those that try to fight in a more direct manner.

Parrafin
Posts: 96
Joined: Wed Feb 27, 2008 3:48 am
Location: Roanoke, VA. USA
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Re: Scout changes

Post by Parrafin » Thu Jul 10, 2008 3:44 pm

It takes some guts to use escape in pk because sometimes, inexplicably, it just doesn't work. I'll just eat bash or some horrible spell and that's it. Failed escape death. If you flee- you've got to get away, and quick, cause that blows your cover. I've only ever tried scouts in PK after the changes and the only tactic that has ever worked is stab, run, (enough for a BN) and the rare time someone lets you re-stab them. The biggest impediment-if sneak MUST be ruined by fleeing-are moves.
I don't want to reveal my M.O. entirely but if you don't have a mount nearby, you will end up simply committing suicide when trying to PK. If you have to pull out a 'flee' you're vulnerable, and have to burn out some moves real quick to get sneak back. You can't hope to stab someone while leading around a mount, either.
Don't even tell me to get travel lore. Travel lore is simply absurd! First of all, I'd have to TP for probably a whole week straight. I'm not entirely sure if i need 3k/level 3.5k/level or what! Then I'd have to get ginseng, multiple times, since I can never mix on the first try. I've checked the supposed load spots! I've found it laying around Arda maybe once, ever. It is no wonder people offer such absurd EQ every day in exchange for ginseng. Walking lore was enough of a pain, and I've never successfully mixed a damn bit! Ugh....

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