Test-mume feedback on scout changes

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Kenzu
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Re: Test-mume feedback on scout changes

Post by Kenzu »

Zaugs will be able to prac 13 pracs of escape...

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Rogon
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Re: Test-mume feedback on scout changes

Post by Rogon »

Nockurzh wrote: Otherwise we have some very fucked up immo making up stupid ideas becasue he/she is not smart enough to avoid backstabs...
When you feel the urge to write something like this, you probably feel pretty strongly about it.

The stronger you feel about something, the more important is it that people actually listen to you. Why then, would you go ahead and write something that just makes sure noone will even bother to read the rest of what you have to say?

Resist the urge. Behave. And who knows, maybe your opinion will be part of the decision-making?
Rogon
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Re: Test-mume feedback on scout changes

Post by Rogon »

On the subject of sneak when panic wears off, how would this work:

Change autosneak - toggles autosneak on and off

When off - it does nothing
When on - if you were sneaking when you got the -panic flag, you will automatically turn sneak on again when the -panic flag wears off?

That way people could decide for themselves.
Ugurz
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Re: Test-mume feedback on scout changes

Post by Ugurz »

OK your forum officially SUCKS. I spent about two hours writing up some really good ideas for this new sneak-system, hit preview, was asked to relog in and all of my work just vanished. Bah.

Forget it ... I'll go with whatever you dorks come up with ... sigh. :(
Ugurz
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Re: Test-mume feedback on scout changes

Post by Ugurz »

OK I'll re-create this from memory ...

It seems like the intent of these changes is to allow warrior-groups to hunt down scouts that are running away from them. Here are some ideas ...

1. Remove sneak-malus flag that was added to panic some time ago.
2. Develop new sneak-malus flag as follows:
- If scout performs hit/shoot-flee, malus is not added.
- If scout performs backstab-flee, malus is added to panic flag.
- If mob/player hits scout first and he/she flees, malus is added to panic flag.
3. Panic malus has following affect:
- Scout's sneak/backstab functions normally when entering rooms.
- Scout's sneak-hide fails at some high-% chance when others enter his/her room.
- Scout may not hide-quick nor hide-fast with this flag.
- This will allow mobs/players to hunt scouts that are running away after backstab-fleeing.
4. Improve sneak. I am level 86 with 105% sneak and it fails ALL the time vs. mobs.
5. Improve escape as suggested in other post comments.
- It should be faster.
- It should never fail if fully practiced.
- It should not reveal the direction of escape to others in room.
(high awareness can have % chance to see direction of escape)
(nice bonus affect for whitie scouts, who tend to have high awareness)
- It might need to be a bit slower than flee, else flee sneak-malus will never happen.
6. Change scout guild practicing as follows:
- Reduce sneak from 23 to 16 practices to max learn.
- Reduce backstab from 23 to 16 practices to max learn.
- Allow all races to practice escape to 16 pracs.
- Scouts can use the 14 'saved' sneak/backstab practices for escape skill.
- Scout will have to move 2 pracs from other skills if he/she wishes to max escape.
7. Attack-oriented scouts would not be hindered by this system
- Can utilize hit/shoot-flee tactic without sneak malus.
- Can utilize escape if hit first by opponent(s), and not receive sneak malus.
- Optionally, hit/shoot-flee causes malus but hit/shoot-escape does not of course.

I think these are good ideas ... well of course I do since I wrote them ... but there are probably some side-effects I have not considered. Please feel free to comment ... be nice please ... don't hate me if I have recently killed one of your characters ... I'm supposed to do that. :)
Relim
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Re: Test-mume feedback on scout changes

Post by Relim »

Rogon wrote:On the subject of sneak when panic wears off, how would this work:

Change autosneak - toggles autosneak on and off

When off - it does nothing
When on - if you were sneaking when you got the -panic flag, you will automatically turn sneak on again when the -panic flag wears off?

That way people could decide for themselves.
Assuming that this idea is going to go through, then something like this would be essential imho.

I like some of Ugurz's ideas there, but they look pretty complex (ie, a malus based on an attack action, not triggered for another attack action).

Equally, though, I doubt that the Imps will want something which _never_ fails if fully practised. That'd negate backfires, failed bashes, even certain DT's if something is pracced/high enough, which I dont think anyone really wants.

One thing that became pretty clear, and something I'd entirely forgotten (along with where to practice escape itself) was the pure power of a puke with stabbing. My characters used to be roughly the same level, but stabbing thieves/guards/assassins in tharbad with a puke was outrageous - compared to my BN anyway. While it's accepted that BNs are supposed to be for more experienced players (and I didn't have the equipment or the time to test this out on BN), I hate to think what this will do to trying to play a BN thief.

The final problem here is that while you get players that prefer scout and possibly play to the point that they add little to the experience of others to the game (and I include myself here), are we going so far with these changes that such players would be put off of the game entirely? Is MUME better off without the lone-wolf type character, able to experience/pk pretty much in any zone, offering a constant risk to bigger/badder/better players? I'm aware this isn't part of the test here, but let's just be a little careful that we don't create prey more than predator - after all, the lone-wolf should be predator, and while it might not suit all styles of play, trying to create an environment for these players which removes their overwhelming advantage yet still retains their underlying weaknesses (notably in winter; I can't escape a damn thing in winter) is not so much acting as a balance, more as a way to get rid of these players.

I still say that this is too extreme, therefore, and would suggest one of two actions:

1. Increase the speed of escape dramatically (perhaps to one failed flee, tops), either increase the pracs or reduce the number of pracs to max the other skills, reduce the time of panic to a handful of seconds, create autonsneak.
2. Forget all of these changes and rather either increase the time it takes to hide, or reduce the efficiency of hide somewhat.

This is my "simple, stupid" approach, of course, and if some of the more "complex" notions Ugurz is suggesting can be done without it impacting gameplay horrifically then those are equally preferable.
Ugurz
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Re: Test-mume feedback on scout changes

Post by Ugurz »

Trust me Relim, I don't think there is a problem with scouts currently but the warrior-loving, scout-hating players obviously have Ilie's ear right now. The current system that I tested on test-mume was horrible so I am tring to offer some ideas to help Ilie not ruin the class completely ... as the warrior-players are hoping to do. Do you really think I want my level 86 character destroyed like this ... think again?
Razoor
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Re: Test-mume feedback on scout changes

Post by Razoor »

Ugurz ideas are almost all well thought through and balanced. I would still go with Relim's #2 though, forget about these changes.

There is no problem with thieves today, it's really easy to avoid backstabbing if you just pay attention.
(I died to stab 3 days ago so this time i'm not biased!)

I think thieves add a nice part to the game since you have to pay constant attention, but if these changes were
added i for one would reroll my zorc into a warrior.

To add a bit to Ugurz list, make hit-flee from sneak also get no -panic flag, and to make -panic reduce hidespeed rather than
sneakability is a very good idea.
Wobbler
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Re: Test-mume feedback on scout changes

Post by Wobbler »

The only skill I had to skip when I got escape with a level 29 Human scout on testmume was search, I had plenty of pracs left for non-scout things such as endurance, parry and cure light. I don't think making backstab easier to prac is really necessary just to free pracs for escape.

Escape should not make one invisible. If anything should be changed regarding this, it is the mobs with escape-mudlles.
Imagine having fought someone with a sword for a few minutes (or two combat rounds) and then suddenly, in the middle of a swing, he just vanishes into thin air without you having taken your eyes off him.

I did not fail a single escape against a solo opponent, mobs nor players, during my testing. In fact, it almost seemed a little too easy. I'm not so sure I would want 100+ escape meaning never failing. I only see multiple opponents as a problem.

As for Ugurz' panic-ideas: they seem interesting, but probably very hard to implement right.
Edit: Just getting rid of panic entirely would suit me fine.

As for avoiding backstabs, I would like an automated system including:
  • Make awareness and sense life give considerably higher detection ability against sneakers than they have today.
  • Whenever one auto-detects a sneaker thanks to awareness, have the sneaker automatically revealed to one's groupmates. (This also ought to reduce net traffic significantly, since there will be a few thousand fewer reveal commands sent per day).
  • Increase the detection capability added by higher alertness significantly.
  • Make awareness increase the chance to manually reveal/flush out someone hidden (almost) as much as search does.
  • Edit: Flush should attack anyone who reveals himself before the flush is finished.
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Zigûrun
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Re: Test-mume feedback on scout changes

Post by Zigûrun »

I don't think that avoiding of the backstabs or the damage of it is the real issue here, but rather how easy is to pk efficiently as sneaker without ever placing yourself in any real danger. Allowing players to use mappers greatly enhanced this for them aswell, mainly because its the one class that will want to use terrain nuances to their advantage the most.
So I agree that some sort of sneak/hide downgrading would be nice indeed, though being not allowed to sneak with panic flag does seem a bit harsh to me, too.
Rogon
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Re: Test-mume feedback on scout changes

Post by Rogon »

Razoor wrote:Ugurz ideas are almost all well thought through and balanced. I would still go with Relim's #2 though, forget about these changes.
That would depend a little on what the management is trying to achieve here, wouldn't it? Maybe they think sneak-shoot in small areas is a problem.

I really can't see why escape would hide what direction you go in. How do you motivate that? So you managed to disengage from combat, how does that puts you into hiding so others can't see you leave?

For me personally, there's only two things I would really want to change when it comes to thieves, and that's hiding (and in particular loop hiding) in forests and the need to constantly spam search quick, which gets very old and boring after awhile.

On top of that, I'd like to see rogues have more melee fighting possibilities with daggers to reduce the need to use a bow/backstab.

These changes doesn't affect any of that I guess..
Relim
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Re: Test-mume feedback on scout changes

Post by Relim »

Rogon wrote:
Razoor wrote:Ugurz ideas are almost all well thought through and balanced. I would still go with Relim's #2 though, forget about these changes.

For me personally, there's only two things I would really want to change when it comes to thieves, and that's hiding (and in particular loop hiding) in forests and the need to constantly spam search quick, which gets very old and boring after awhile.

On top of that, I'd like to see rogues have more melee fighting possibilities with daggers to reduce the need to use a bow/backstab.

These changes doesn't affect any of that I guess..
The first doesn't require any changes directly to scout (as an alternative). Changing hide efficiency could also be based on increasing the impact of awareness and sense life; as well as track in avoiding loops.

I agree that if there were more fighting possibilities for "rogues" then there would be less reliance on bow and/or backstab, but to get to inputting on that point (and referring to your other point about management), it'd be good to have a real sense of what is trying to be achieved with these (potential) changes. Perhaps "management" could comment a little more on this?
Elmir
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Re: Test-mume feedback on scout changes

Post by Elmir »

Anyone here know why they changed search/flush in the first place?
Ugurz
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Re: Test-mume feedback on scout changes

Post by Ugurz »

New rogue fighting options ... hmmmm ... like wielding an engraved broadsword in my right had and a brd in my left perhaps? *evil grin*
Elestir
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Re: Test-mume feedback on scout changes

Post by Elestir »

Maybe management should clarify what they see as a problem with thieves/scouts.

For now these are problems I see:
  • Flushing in a room doesn't always prevent sneakers to pass through.
  • Spamrevealing is tedious.
  • Awareness is almost useless. (too unreliable and too costly)
  • Inconsistency of sneak effectivness vs mobs and players. (You fail a lot vs mobs, and almost never vs players.)
  • Inconsistency of on-entry reveal. (Mobs entering room almost never reveal sneaker, players almost always do.)
  • Hiding in a forest with mobs is too easy. (More thorough hiding should reveal you to ppl in room while hiding.)
Azazello
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Re: Test-mume feedback on scout changes

Post by Azazello »

Elmir wrote:Anyone here know why they changed search/flush in the first place?
The old flush/search was instant and people abused it.

You could for example start flush quick and instantly hit enter. You would still lush the sneaker out and would have to stay in delay. (which is often the case of escaped victims, for example woland tracks, stolb flushes -> awful victim spams past without being hit)

However the current implementation is definatly bugged. For example something like this is possible:

flush thoro
..
..
You notice *bastard the zau schwein*
<hit enter, interrupt delay>
<cast 'lgihtning' *orc*>
There is no *orc*.

:-/ It's rather annoying when you search thoro 3 times in row in a forest, find you target and then reflectively hit enter to cast on it and alas, you haven't found it!
Razoor
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Re: Test-mume feedback on scout changes

Post by Razoor »

Wobbler, you forget that a level 29 human has ~25 pracs more than a level 29 tark scout, and ~40? more than a Zaugurz orc. You'd have to skip
alot more than search if you wanted escape as well, for combo-scouts that'd be a definite killer as they lack pracs already. As an example I have to keep my
wilderness skill extremely low on my Zaugurz so that I can get both pound (14 pracs) and bash (25 pracs). I would like endurance and pound to be
significantly higher as well, but it's simply impossible due to the lack of pracs.

Rogon, I'm not sure if you used sneak-shoot in closed areas as an example or as something you believe. I just wanted to point out that drawing a bow
in a closeable is almost always equal to painful death as a scout, so this can't be what the management is thinking. If they are, they are brutally misinformed.

I'm not sure who suggested it, but i also dont think sense life and awareness should give protection against backstabs. As it is, any character can get
sense life, even my warrior with minimum mentals could probably pull it off. Awareness is also a rangerskill so there would be no maluses for praccing it.
This would just end up with everyone having sense life (3-4 pracs) and Awareness, and thieves would be given a hell. It's already really hard to land a backstab,
not to mention killing, a clueful player with it. Leave it as it is.

Rather: Make sure the sneaker is always hit if you are flushing, make hiding take longer time and be much less efficient indoors and slightly less efficient
in forests/open terrain.
Wobbler
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Re: Test-mume feedback on scout changes

Post by Wobbler »

Aren't Orcs, Zaugurz in particular, supposed to be weaker than pukes, in order to make them harder to play?

Edit: To give protection against backstab was the very reason awareness was implemented in the first place, as far as I remember.
I would much, much rather have this skill work as intended than press my reveal quick-key a dozen times before drinking a glass of water RL.
Politicians are wise and benevolent and will gladly sacrifice themselves for the common good. Anyone who implies that there might exist dishonest politicians is obviously a terrorist who should be locked up indefinitely without a trial.
Mindy
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Re: Test-mume feedback on scout changes

Post by Mindy »

you shouldn't be able to never get backstabbed just by practicing awareness. I realize awarness is pretty useless but if thats the case then can we get a skill that makes you immune to dispel evil, or by maxing dodge be able to dodge your way out of earthquake debris? Spam revealing is tedious but can there be a benefit of always being paranoid of sneakers? Sure, most people go regen in closeables which make it easier to trap them, casters can nuke enemies unengaged (which is faster) but its also possible to stab them in the process, etc. how about instead:

-remove panic malus when fleeing
-introduce a bigger malus than the current one after a successful (or maybe even if they "sensed" you) backstab.

oh and i also liked ugurz's ideas
Ilie
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Re: Test-mume feedback on scout changes

Post by Ilie »

Closing this thread now, testmume will be up soon with the next revision. I have tried to integrate some of the constructive feedback from this thread, as well as from discussions with the rest of management. Stay tuned.
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