Any future ahead? I guess not.

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Adverse
Posts: 16
Joined: Tue Feb 26, 2008 7:12 pm

Any future ahead? I guess not.

Post by Adverse » Fri Dec 26, 2008 10:52 pm

Well, this will unfortunately be written when I am not in my best mood since I just died horribly due to what happened almost a year ago. Unlike before, see the thread “Recent changes, any future ahead?” I am now a lot more negative and I just want to say that I am really disappointed with how management dealt with the game the last year. First a lot happened, new forum and new features to the game. Great! everyone thought. However, these game changes obviously didn't turn out the way they were intended and most of us just waited for the “bright future” that would set things right. On the contrary, management didn’t care at all. :(

Now it’s been almost a year since thief’s got more or less unplayable in pk action. The only change to compensate for this huge degradation of one class was the change to charm spell which basically didn’t affect game and especially not pk at all.

From the beginning when I started to play mume I’ve always found it awesome that a game that was so fun was totally free and completely available to anyone with a net connection. It’s really sad to see how one bad idea can totally destroy so much. I am one of those who play almost exclusively scouts and for players like me this change really has been a complete game destroyer.

Because of the complete lack of any effort to make up for a bad game change, I have now lost all hope for mume scouts and therefore I doubt that I ever find anything fun in mume anymore. I think that this is really sad...

wompum
Posts: 10
Joined: Tue Jul 22, 2008 4:09 am

Re: Any future ahead? I guess not.

Post by wompum » Sun Dec 28, 2008 1:07 am

With the current changes to scouts it has created a change in pk but scouts are still used and some are warlords so how can you say they are useless all you have to do is pick your battles and be prepared to die on a regular basis when you take chances. I would make one change and that would be sneak. Its pretty messed up how a legend thief with maxed out sneak is constantly revealed by mobs. If that were changed i feel there would be a big change in scout player base.

Adverse
Posts: 16
Joined: Tue Feb 26, 2008 7:12 pm

Re: Any future ahead? I guess not.

Post by Adverse » Mon Dec 29, 2008 8:12 pm

Yes Thifs are playable. BUT you have to modify their praccs and stats. So why weren't we given a free praccreset or even a free smaller stat change. I agree on the sneak issue.

science
Posts: 70
Joined: Wed Aug 13, 2008 7:00 pm

futures can take awhile

Post by science » Mon Dec 29, 2008 10:39 pm

I have been surprised by the lack of comment by admins on many posts in this "official" forum.

It's clear to me that people are still not very happy with the thief class. Others have taken it upon themselves to "prove" that they are still playable... of course they are, even zorcs are playable when you're that skilled eh? But the fun is missing for many who played them before. I think nosneak is realistic and a great idea. But perhaps something else should be added/modified for thieves in return for the nerf :) Politics of keeping players happy is important, and it doesn't seem to me that the admins have done a very good job of a) being visible, and b) understanding/responding to the politics.

It's a bit ironic, as if everyone paid $5/month to play the game, we'd feel like we could have more of a say. But since it's free, we don't. The admins have absolute power, which is very useful in many cases, but also can make the players feel undervalued sometimes. The crazy amount of time some people put into playing this game makes them part-owners in the system. Mume without it's players would be nothing.

Ideas for thief-boons? Better sneak, certainly. Less backstab failure/noticing against some mobs. Make escape a bit faster. My best idea? Let them make some sort of envenom-based BOB potion that requires the envenom skill to apply (to you or anyone). Foot-balm/etc. Comparable to orc-draught, but much more focused on the mp regen than the one-time bonus, and with fairly easily available herbs.

Khemsa
Posts: 3
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 2:20 am

Re: Any future ahead? I guess not.

Post by Khemsa » Wed Dec 31, 2008 3:53 am

Escape is useless. It simply does not work fast enough or well enough when you need it to. Try using superb escape to flee patrols in Moria.

I understand why scout players are mad, but I also remember before the changes, over half the warlords were scouts, and you had zorc scouts running around everywhere and noone ever bothered to hunt them. :roll: When 1/2 of the game are scouts, MUME is at it's worst and about as far away from a Tolkien-themed rpish gameworld as you can get. For this reason, I hope they don't ever repair thieves to what they were. I enjoy the fact I don't have to reveal/flush half as much as I used to anymore.

"First, you don't simply create a multi-user environment that will last for as many years as MUME has. I think that a mud in general, and MUME in particular, has to be a living organism in constant development or it will die abruptly. " - Manwe

Andróg
Posts: 204
Joined: Tue Apr 15, 2008 10:10 pm

Re: Any future ahead? I guess not.

Post by Andróg » Wed Dec 31, 2008 12:34 pm

Well, unfortunate Manwe has not stayed true to that statement he made about 4 years ago as the last 4 years have been exactly the time of little to no development.

Still, your statement, Khemsa, doesn't make sense. I don't see what's especially untolkien about thiefs. Fireballing hobbits sounds more Tolkien? Or sneaking dwarves? Or... or... or...

It is pointless to complain about any one class in MUME because it's untolkien. The class system as it is right now it totally alien to Tolkien as a whole. But we're stuck with it because that's the codebase of MUME and we don't have any coders on the horizon who might write huge parts of new code to totally rebuild MUME. Meanwhile such complaints like yours don't make sense.

Brummbaer
Posts: 16
Joined: Tue Nov 04, 2008 10:32 am
Location: Leipzig

Re: Any future ahead? I guess not.

Post by Brummbaer » Wed Dec 31, 2008 2:43 pm

The problem with Zorc thieves is zorcs, not thieves.

As several posters have pointed out, thieves have been ruined. But this is not new, and not due only to the most recent alterations. Changes to the class over the years have long been moving it to "warrior light". If there are any further changes to thieves, I would expect them to move this process further along. Lastly, don't expect thieves to be "fixed": they are "broken by design".

Khemsa
Posts: 3
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 2:20 am

Re: Any future ahead? I guess not.

Post by Khemsa » Thu Jan 01, 2009 12:59 am

My argument makes total sense. Seems you confused my point a bit. A Tolkienish gameworld should not be dominated by scout class. I can suspend my belief a bit for multiclassing (although I think it blows, there are small examples of multiclassing in Tolkien), however a Tolkien world full of backstabbing scouts is beyond belief. Since the changes, scouts are down to a reasonable number again, and I think that's acceptable and nothing should be changed for them except escape skill which is laughable. I never said scout class was unTolkienish as that would be a ignorant and untrue statement, I said a MUME overrun by scout players is unTolkienish... and it is. The last thing MUME needs is a return to a few years ago when scouts were everywhere and basically had free reign because noone bothered to hunt them.

Brummbaer
Posts: 16
Joined: Tue Nov 04, 2008 10:32 am
Location: Leipzig

Re: Any future ahead? I guess not.

Post by Brummbaer » Thu Jan 01, 2009 9:03 am

I do not recall MUME ever being "overrun by scout players", and I've been playing a good few years now. You -- like the gods that matter it would appear -- appear not to care overmuch for the scout class. Fine. There's no need to produce specious justifications: just state your opinion, you're entitled to it.


The "un-Tolkienlike" argument is dead in the water, given just how much basic stuff in MUME is totally contrary to the world portrayed in JRR's books.

Andróg
Posts: 204
Joined: Tue Apr 15, 2008 10:10 pm

Re: Any future ahead? I guess not.

Post by Andróg » Fri Jan 02, 2009 2:59 pm

Khemsa, I've been playing since 2001 or so and I don't recall a situation when MUME was overrun by scouts. Must be amnesia or something, right?

And my point still stands - none of the classes are particularly fitting for the Tolkien environment, but unfortunate that's all we got and we have to live with it, but to claim that one class is somehow more unTolkien than another is a stupid point to make. Even if you try to make it about the quantity-frequency of the class, not about the class itself.

But back to being overrun. In my experience these overrun-by-classX whines surface when particularly strong example characters of that class surface. Years ago we had the Fingeror-Ostu-Snowy trio and all the darkie players were screaming how the game is being overrun by overpowered whitie mages. Was it because whitie mages as such were so powerful or because those particular characters were simply lethal? I suspect the latter.

Khemsa
Posts: 3
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 2:20 am

Re: Any future ahead? I guess not.

Post by Khemsa » Thu Jan 29, 2009 6:55 pm

Sorry for late reply, don't come here to this forum often.

I'm not going to respond to comments that my opinion is stupid, my memory is bad, or that I should just give my opinion and not get into specifics. This is a forum, and if I can't get into specifics and my opinion is pointless or stupid, there really isn't much to say here. The fact anyone would pull out the 'stupid' card while refusing to acknowledge that class frequency and balance is something valid to be discussed pretty much says it all for me.

Have fun with your discussion. :)
Last edited by Khemsa on Thu Jan 29, 2009 7:02 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Jahara
Posts: 228
Joined: Sat Feb 23, 2008 9:55 pm
Location: Indiana, USA
Contact:

Re: Any future ahead? I guess not.

Post by Jahara » Thu Jan 29, 2009 7:00 pm

From the friendly management:
This is not directed at anyone, but we do try to have higher standards here than on other forums since this is our official forum. As always, try to keep the conversations civil.

Twine
Posts: 4
Joined: Sat Feb 07, 2009 8:34 pm

Re: Any future ahead? I guess not.

Post by Twine » Sat Feb 07, 2009 8:35 pm

Is management at least going to *comment* on this issue? Anyone? Please? Anything? I'm praying to you, here.

Andróg
Posts: 204
Joined: Tue Apr 15, 2008 10:10 pm

Re: Any future ahead? I guess not.

Post by Andróg » Sun Feb 08, 2009 1:43 pm

You're praying, but no one is listening. Just out of curiosity I did a quick study using the statistics presented by the forums. While we will never know how much time the V+ spend online in MUME, then the statistics about the forums are openly available to anyone who bothers to look at them. So I did just that, I looked at them. The result:
Ilie - Last visited: 11 Jan 2009, 11:03
Mint - Last visited: 19 May 2008, 06:31
Nienor - Last visited: 08 Nov 2008, 00:37
Sung - Last visited: 24 Jan 2009, 14:24
Timodeus - Last visited: 06 Feb 2009, 00:38
Fror - Last visited: 28 Nov 2008, 17:08
Manwe - Last visited: 18 Mar 2008, 00:34
Force - Last visited: 03 Nov 2008, 04:08
Mandor - Last visited: 08 Sep 2008, 11:49
Swix - Last visited: 15 Apr 2008, 15:55
Alkar - Last visited: 27 May 2008, 02:12
Dain - Last visited: 20 Nov 2008, 07:03
The bottom line is this: of course we cannot know how much they read the forums while not actually logged on, but at least the large majority of them don't even log on, let alone reply to something. Your best chance is that Ilie or Sung will reply when they have their next visit, if Timodeus hasn't replied so far he probably isn't going to anyway, and hoping for a reply from others is pretty much pointless.

Timodeus
Arata
Posts: 301
Joined: Sun Feb 24, 2008 9:20 am
Location: Germany

Re: Any future ahead? I guess not.

Post by Timodeus » Sun Feb 08, 2009 7:58 pm

Not going to comment on that I just want to add that those statistics really do not reflect the login- (presence)-times in the game. ;)

wiseman
Posts: 23
Joined: Mon Jan 19, 2009 6:51 pm

Re: Any future ahead? I guess not.

Post by wiseman » Tue Feb 10, 2009 7:20 pm

I think you're missing his point Timodeus. These are the official forums. If MUME management really wants to foster an environment that's condusive to communication and information sharing they would use this tool as it is has the potential to reach a much larger audience than in-game.

I think that's his point. That by showing the logins we can get a reasonable idea of how active (or inactive) higher management is willing to be in regards to communicating with its community.

My opinion is that MUME always has been this way and always will be this way. It's a free game run by people in their spare time...the community has a weird feeling of entitlement in regards to changes/etc that I don't agree with.

Timodeus
Arata
Posts: 301
Joined: Sun Feb 24, 2008 9:20 am
Location: Germany

Re: Any future ahead? I guess not.

Post by Timodeus » Wed Feb 11, 2009 10:23 am

A few years ago someone posted some post by Manwe (was ist 2004?)... I guess we simply have to live with the idea that those who are usually considered high management (A+) always have been sucky in regards to PR/communication and always will be. I guess that's one of the possible prices you have to pay when a bunch of geeks start something as MUME.
Is that good? No. Is that annoying? Yes. Is that killing the game? No.
It just sucks. I have always said that in the past and I will do so in the future but at least MUME is still around and stuff still gets done. All in all, it's not perfect right now but better than in the years since... I don't know, 2004/5).

I think I got his point very, very well. Othervise, I would not come this often. But what am I supposed to say? Especially about the hype that someone created near the beginning of the last year? Adding the forums was very good and needed but some things/statements by some persons around that incident hurt the game more than doing nothing (check out this thread-title).

Apart from that, I think the "top -> playerbase communication" on the mud I came to like very much is an example of "how not to run a mud" but on the other hand is EVERYTHING we can do and we can create never more than a mere framework for the community to blossom in. And I think the community (that would be you) can do a lot more than is done right now. Play, create extra-stuff as new clients, hang out in the game, I don't know... basically, if one thinks about it, there is no vital "need" for a communicating Implementor (or others). It would be good to see some action, some caring, but in the case of MUME we all have to live with the fact our game is lacking in that aspect. That sucks, yes. That can be annoying. And personally, I hope Ilie finds some more time/motivation to fiddle some more with sneaking. But all that is not really a catastrophe.

MUME is a game from geeks for geeks and I think to a certain degree we have to accept that some of our most important people fulfil some cliche of a geek. ;) (And no, that won't keep me and you from thinking that some things are very, very annoying and really, really do not have to be that way). But for me the day is better again tomorrow, the metaphoric sun comes out and I build something in the game, or bug someone to "just say yes", or make a few quick xp, or post about some bad movie I saw in a MUME-related forum (I could do it in any other forum (and sometimes I do))...

PS: One reason for the bad communication is they/we do not want to "promise things that are still in development". Features change or are being debated or get scrapped, projects lead to nothing, timeframes shift. Once someone said something official or unofficial, people have a certain set of expectations and some or many of those will lead to disappointment. So, what's worse? Createing expectation and disappoint them or do not start those expectations in the first place?
For example, you won't hear anything from me about the development in Dol Guldur. I'm happy with some things, think that I will screw up a few others, scrap something else, builders come and leave, timescales shift... it may look like mean information-killing but in fact it's just precaution. I won't talk about stuff that's not done and when it's done, you'll see it yourself (and maybe YOUR expectations will lead to disappointment, but at least it was not an expectation I created). I guess it's similar for other people in regard to their "work" on MUME as well.

wiseman
Posts: 23
Joined: Mon Jan 19, 2009 6:51 pm

Re: Any future ahead? I guess not.

Post by wiseman » Wed Feb 11, 2009 6:02 pm

I completely agree.

However, I do understand the frustrations some people express in regards to how MUME is run. I don't agree with them, but I do understand them.

science
Posts: 70
Joined: Wed Aug 13, 2008 7:00 pm

Re: Any future ahead? I guess not.

Post by science » Thu Feb 19, 2009 5:44 am

I disagree with Timodeus.

If the implentors aren't going to be active, they should pass along at least some of the duties and power to someone who is. Mume needs development besides just the (very occasional) new zone launch. It needs someone with authority and power to weigh in to answer frustrated players.

Sure, communication sucks sometimes. And sometimes it gets you in trouble. But saying that we're better off without any communication seems pretty silly to me. The advantages far outweigh the disadvantages.

I run an online community IRL, and open communication is a huge part of that. Sure, you don't share everything. But you ask for suggestions, and try to play at least a bit of the "marketing" game of getting people excited about things. Excitement keeps people around. Mume hasn't had any exciting news in a long while.

There's so much potential too. The constant rolling back of the date got all sorts of fun ideas popping into my head, with rings of power that are around for a 2 week period, to scheduled sauron's darkness, etc. I also hugely feel that emails should be added to user's accounts so we can get news emailed to us and mume-email forwarded to us (after a 30 minute delay of course). And someone should take charge of brainstorming and responding to complaints with rationalizations of why things did happen. Yes, there will be bitter people that their idea didn't get implemented, but it will also be a community, which it's not a very good one at this point. I'm volunteering, though I know power is so rarely shared I don't really expect it, but if anyone is listening, shoot me an email kevin at@ allpoetry com.

Wobbler
Posts: 393
Joined: Mon Feb 25, 2008 10:02 pm

Re: Any future ahead? I guess not.

Post by Wobbler » Sat Feb 28, 2009 3:22 pm

Last spring and summer, when this forum was new, there were rumours of several non-Aratar being given c-code access, something completely unheard of before, which was a step in the right direction. Unfortunately, it seems it stopped at that.

The developers of my favourite games, the only pay-games I've found good enough to actually buy (yes, all from the same company), has a policy of once a week posting a diary on the development of the new game they are currently working on and hanging around for a while answering questions and commenting on suggestions from forum members. Granted, these are people who do this for a living rather than as a hobby, but it is something MUME's management could learn from and adapt to their limited time. Perhaps someone (Timodeus, for instance, as he seems to be the only V+ to visit this forum on a regular basis) could start a blog and mull over which bugs are being worked on, which new features are being discussed or approved of, progress on the development of MUME IX (if such a thing is still in the works) and such things.
Politicians are wise and benevolent and will gladly sacrifice themselves for the common good. Anyone who implies that there might exist dishonest politicians is obviously a terrorist who should be locked up indefinitely without a trial.

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