How Multi-Classing Works

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Vindan
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How Multi-Classing Works

Post by Vindan » Tue Jan 27, 2009 8:35 pm

Hi all,

I just started a new account after something like 6 years of absence. When last I played, I never got around to fully learning how everything worked. Ergo, I need some clarification on how cross-class practice works.

The help forum says that there's a penalty for learning skills that aren't part of your class. Since class is primarily determined by what skills you know, will learning a new skill from outside your class worsen your knowledge of your already-learned class skills. Also, if you learn a mix of skills from two classes, then dacay all the skills from one, will your knowledge of the remaining skills go up to what it would have been if you were a dedicated single-class?

Example:
lvl 10 warrior goes up to lvl 11. He spends all his pracs on scout skills. Will his previously-learned warrior skills worsen?
This warrior then spends a long time decaying all of his warrior skills so that he only knows scout skills and learns nothing else. Will his scout skills improve up to what they would have been for a classless character who had practiced them?

Thanks.

Elestir
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Re: How Multi-Classing Works

Post by Elestir » Tue Jan 27, 2009 10:26 pm

Vindan wrote:lvl 10 warrior goes up to lvl 11. He spends all his pracs on scout skills. Will his previously-learned warrior skills worsen?
Yes. His knowledge percentage will lower a bit for all non-scout and non-ranger skills. Also his warrior-level, cleric-level and mage-level will lower a bit (these are values you can't see in stats/info for some silly reason) effectively weakening skills from these guilds even more. E.g. if you lose 20% in some skill, the real loss is likely bit higher than 20% (caps on various features can affect this a lot though, but if you are low level, you are not likely to be subject of caps).
Vindan wrote:This warrior then spends a long time decaying all of his warrior skills so that he only knows scout skills and learns nothing else. Will his scout skills improve up to what they would have been for a classless character who had practiced them?
Yes. There are no penalties for decaying skills.

Vindan
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Re: How Multi-Classing Works

Post by Vindan » Wed Jan 28, 2009 12:51 am

Okay. So basically, then , there's no penalty for changing your practices around. Good to know. Thanks for the help, Elestir.

science
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Re: How Multi-Classing Works

Post by science » Thu Jan 29, 2009 6:03 pm

It'd sure be handy if we could see our various class-levels though. I wasn't playing when they were shown/hidden again. But trying to make a combo, or as a lowbie and wondering why the *#&#& my stupid blinds don't ever take, even on mobs 5 levels lower than me, it would be neat :)

Andróg
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Re: How Multi-Classing Works

Post by Andróg » Fri Jan 30, 2009 4:24 pm

I don't think that the "class level" has ever been visible? :?

smile
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Re: How Multi-Classing Works

Post by smile » Tue Feb 03, 2009 9:59 pm

Elestir wrote:
Vindan wrote:lvl 10 warrior goes up to lvl 11. He spends all his pracs on scout skills. Will his previously-learned warrior skills worsen?
Yes. His knowledge percentage will lower a bit for all non-scout and non-ranger skills. Also his warrior-level, cleric-level and mage-level will lower a bit (these are values you can't see in stats/info for some silly reason) effectively weakening skills from these guilds even more. E.g. if you lose 20% in some skill, the real loss is likely bit higher than 20% (caps on various features can affect this a lot though, but if you are low level, you are not likely to be subject of caps).




I happen to find your description here a little bit misleading. Yes, they do go down, but in this case it will help you level faster, because the bonuses vastly outweigh the maluses. (mali? lol)

For a powerplayer who goes to maximize every single thing, it might be considered a big deal, but if you're looking for a well balanced character that can do everything you need it to rather well, just not down to the very %, you need to practice out of class things. Especially at your level, that's a very important thing. :D

Elestir
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Re: How Multi-Classing Works

Post by Elestir » Wed Feb 04, 2009 3:25 am

smile wrote:I happen to find your description here a little bit misleading. Yes, they do go down, but in this case it will help you level faster, because the bonuses vastly outweigh the maluses. (mali? lol)
If my description is misleading, quote the part which is incorrect. If nothing is incorrect, how can it be misleading? You should realize he asked about how these things work, he neither asked how he should prac nor what outweighs what. Hence I find your concerns misleading.
smile wrote:For a powerplayer who goes to maximize every single thing, it might be considered a big deal, but if you're looking for a well balanced character that can do everything you need it to rather well, just not down to the very %, you need to practice out of class things. Especially at your level, that's a very important thing. :D
I've never said you need not prac out of your main class. And you are actually wrong when you think powerplayer (assuming high level) should be super-pure, as there are those "caps" on various skills (e.g. spell damage, backstab damage, ...). For some skills it's still good to be as pure as possible even at high level though. Anyway, being non-pure hurts low level a lot more than it does high level.

Timodeus
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Re: How Multi-Classing Works

Post by Timodeus » Wed Feb 04, 2009 1:35 pm

Personally, I think some "impurity" gives more than it costs. But this is only true as long as do not prac too much out of class.

But to me, a warrior with a few pracs in attack and doge, working cure serious, bless, create food, and, depending on the level, maybe one or two other things, is much more worth than a 100% pure warrior (I talked to people who only prac "some cure light" for their warriors instead of "more pracs in cure serious"). The same is true for all other classes as well. I gladly give the "edge" on my fireball or armour up so the mage also knows some bless, bob, maybe remove poison etc.

My suggestion for "young adventurers" ist to go for some warrior-cleric combo with focus on the warrior (and some few pracs in thief-class for dodge and attack (helps you flee)) (good str and con, average dex, useful mentals wis around 15, int as well, but a bit lower). You can experiment on that what works and what not.

But be careful: a character that pracs "everything a bit" won't be able to do anything at all. You can play a warrior with some cleric things and maybe very little mage-stuff, but playing a roughly equally pracced warrior-cleric-mage won't work (your spells will suck - if they actually work at all ;)).

Of course all this is up for discussion, personal taste, and playstyle.

Elestir
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Re: How Multi-Classing Works

Post by Elestir » Wed Feb 04, 2009 2:07 pm

Timodeus wrote:I gladly give the "edge" on my fireball or armour up so the mage also knows some bless, bob, maybe remove poison etc.
Do you actually believe there are mages that do not prac these spells? Of course except for BNs who can't prac bless... Skipping these spells when you don't have to is just plain stupid.

Timodeus
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Re: How Multi-Classing Works

Post by Timodeus » Wed Feb 04, 2009 3:18 pm

No, I do not believe that. I used it as example that "pure" does not mean "the best possible". The focus here is probably on the "etc". ;)

Andróg
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Re: How Multi-Classing Works

Post by Andróg » Fri Feb 06, 2009 1:09 pm

This discussion here has mainly been about warriors, clerics and mages, so here's just a small note to the less experienced (newer) readers: I think (and I believe many will agree) that the class that loses most from being "multi-class" is scout. Having your fireball spell or bash skill go from 105% to 99% isn't really very significant. Sure, there will be occasions where that will matter, however, mostly you'll do fine with 99% as well. The situations in thief-scout class is completely different. The difference between 105% sneak and 99% sneak is immense. Yes, there are scout-combos out there who are or have been very successful, but making such combos work is much trickier than getting some basic spells and scout skills on your warrior.

Also, about Timodeus' suggestion to go for somethinf resembling warrior-cleric. The main difficulty that the non-experts will experience here is "choosing the stats". If your warrior has mentals (that's int and wis) below 10, then don't bother trying to cast spells, seriously. At legend level you can get cure light and bless to work (and you'll still occasionally backfire bless), but anything else would take so many pracs to make it work that it's simply not worth it.

Point being: if you want to follow Timodeus' suggestion you have to think about it when choosing the stats for the character, or you'll have to reroll your low-mentals warrior a bit. (Stat training won't help, the stats that skills take into account don't raise then.) And the trouble here is that there is no in-game support for making combo stats. Asking the game for stats when you make a hobbit scout or a dwarf warrior or a half-elf cleric is very easily: it will indeed give you nice playable stats. However, asking for a dunadan battlecleric is simply not an option. Thus, before you choose to try this: ask help from experienced players and pre-plan what you want your character to be like! :)

PS. Now, this might have sounded confusing or complicating, but I assure you (from personal experience as well) - combos are a lot more fun to play than pure-class characters! :D

Wobbler
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Re: How Multi-Classing Works

Post by Wobbler » Sat Feb 28, 2009 4:08 pm

smile wrote:because the bonuses vastly outweigh the maluses. (mali? lol)
Maluses is the correct plural for the English noun, while mali is the correct Latin form for both the noun and the adjective in many cases, both singular and plural. Also note that as a Latin noun, malus only relates to apple trees, it is not an antonym of bonus, which as a Latin noun only relates to gentlemen. Look it up on Wiktionary!

I seem to recall an explicit statement that the once-displayed (in the very early days of MUME VII) class-level has no actual effect, only the effective level (which is equal to the nominal level up to level 25) and the skill (for many non-spells only the skill) matters; avoiding confusion over this being the very reason class-levels were made invisible.
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Elestir
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Re: How Multi-Classing Works

Post by Elestir » Sat Feb 28, 2009 6:26 pm

Wobbler wrote:I seem to recall an explicit statement that the once-displayed (in the very early days of MUME VII) class-level has no actual effect, only the effective level (which is equal to the nominal level up to level 25) and the skill (for many non-spells only the skill) matters; avoiding confusion over this being the very reason class-levels were made invisible.
I also remember this statement, although I don't remember exact words. In either way there are these "guild-levels" effectively affecting the skills. I can tell from my experience, and I bet many other experienced players can as well. I am not saying they are the same as those that were visible, but they do exist.

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