Recent changes, a bright future ahead

[Adverse]

I think that noone was was more right than Razoor who somewhere said that this change will just encourage cowardish stab and run tactics. Also, It seems to have encouraged the tactic "always call bkup" as soon as you spot a thief and just spam it dead. I haven't had a 1v1 since the change.

[Edvard]

I just hunted Sethanon around as Ethne, lvl 53 mage, with 2 eagles. Now disregarding that 2 eagles is utterly overpowered, I felt a difference in the pursuit of the scout. He used rivers and forests and hid from me, and it took me about 10 minutes to get him wounded and he ran into zoc as I was icy slow. Now, with old scouts I could've been out there still hunting for him and he fine hps but i actually felt that it was very balanced today. Now that don't mean I think that scouts as a class are balanced, only that their means of survival is pretty balanced.

Now what scouts need is offensive power in forms of new skill, old missile, or something like that.

[Naralón]

Thats what i said Edvard, there is a reason scouts usually runs when they are detected.

Scouts need some advantage that make them more able to hold their ground in a fight.

[wilderon]

Thats what i said Edvard, there is a reason scouts usually runs when they are detected.

Scouts need some advantage that make them more able to hold their ground in a fight.

you do realize that the term scout denotes someone who attacks or watches from afar not someone who stand toe to toe with a warrior or mage and battles it out. these are really quick types who run and hide far away from battle and watch and wait for a chance for a sneak attack then run again. ugurz is the prime example. run and hide...and wait. he plays scout the way it is supposed to be played.

[Edvard]

Thats what i said Edvard, there is a reason scouts usually runs when they are detected.

Scouts need some advantage that make them more able to hold their ground in a fight.

you do realize that the term scout denotes someone who attacks or watches from afar not someone who stand toe to toe with a warrior or mage and battles it out. these are really quick types who run and hide far away from battle and watch and wait for a chance for a sneak attack then run again. ugurz is the prime example. run and hide...and wait. he plays scout the way it is supposed to be played.

What exactly are you basing this information on? Having read Lord of the rings, it appears to me that Legolas-type characters (one could argue if he's more of a ranger, but I mean he's wearing cloth and uses bow and shortsword so he looks like a mume scout to me) are very good in toe to toe battles, and uses their bows in close range. Your assumption that scouts are "supposed" to play with some sort of sneak-flee tactics seems absurd to me, and i wonder who is your source on that. I doubt Tolkien saw it as possible to sneak flee a rider of the rohirrim, for instance. Besides from a gameplay point of view, scouts like Ugurz doesn't exactly contribute to a more fun gaming experience.

A mume room is supposed to be a pretty large area, and it is possible even from a roleplay point of view to implement skills that base themselves on scouts agility and movability, without them having to even leave the room. But to get there we have to stop whining and think creatively.

[Naralón]

Edvard stole my words...

[erekose]

I believe it is a bold statement to claim there is only one way to play a scout. I think one could claim Legolas represents but one of the forms a scout can skilled at moving silently and hiding, heightened perception, skilled bowman and more than decent with a knife. Yet the times he is involved in major combat he is armoured in chain mail. For those who do not remember just prior to the battle in Helm's deep, soon after Theoden is healed "... and they arrayed Aragorn and Legolas in shining mail, helms too they chose, and round shields: ... ", of course this is NOT mithril mail, but chain mail from Edoras. Moreover he was fighting orcs that wore similar yet usually worse quality mail and of significantly lower combat skill (level?) than him. I think no one here would believe that he would have fought the Mouth of Sauron, in whatever the armour, with the same approach, even less if he was pitted against a stronger, more accomplished, mithril armoured orc.

As for claiming one cannot see scouts using hit/flee tactics, I would like to remind you of the ambush laid by Faramir and the Men of Gondor to the Haradrim (yes, where Sam sees the Oliphaunt):
1. Hide from them
2. Wait till they are in a position where you have the advantage.
3. Hit them while they still have not figured out what is going on and kill as many as possible
4. Run as fast as you can to a hidden place they can't find.

You end up losing more man and inflicting significant if not deadly damage to your opponent.

The Men of Gondor as described as follows"Two had great bows, almost their own height, and had great quivers of long-feathered arrows. All had swords on their sides, and were clad in green and brown of various hues, as if the better to walk unseen in the glades of Ithilien". Scouts? hit-flee tactics in the Lord of the Rings? really?

I bet the Haradrim could claim Faramir was not "contributing to the fun war experience" for them.

[Edvard]

Good that we agree on the first point, that there is no "real" way to play scouts. Ugurz doesn't stand for any universal or correct way of playing scout (thank god). I wasn't trying to get myself into any "whats rp or not" kind of discussion because frankly, I don't think it is all that important. But to answer your post, the men of Gondor, sounds more like a group of warriors in mume jumping an enemy xp-group, than it describes the current way people play scouts in mume.

"I bet the Haradrim could claim Faramir was not "contributing to the fun war experience" for them." I'm not exactly sure what you're implying here, that I'm silly for caring about the gameplay factor? Do you have any opinions of your own on how to balance scouts? I'm trying, believe it or not, to come up with serious ideas for fixing scouts, because I dont want my own scout to suck, and i'd appreciate it if you would help.

[Finwë]

Clearly Faramir and his men are combo characters (sneak, hide, missile, slash, presumably excellent dodge and parry since they have no armour).

But let's not get side-tracked too much.

[erekose]

First and foremost I agree let us not get sidetracked. Secondly I cannot claim sufficient knowledge of the game to do anything but agree wholeheartedly with you on the need to do something about scouts. Neither do I intend to discuss roleplaying aspects of the game, which I think are a personal choice. It is enjoyed by many in many different ways.

Yet if we are to have worthy debate, people's arguments cannot be dismissed in an inappropriate manner. By all means propose ideas, disagree with the ideas others present, pose your own points of view and interpretations on the game or the literature. But I believe it is not right to dismiss a person's perspective, grounding the dismissal on the work of Tolkien, and then provide in inaccurate example (not an interpretation) to illustrate your point

Now, returning to the issue:

In my opinion, the actual consequence of the changes has been to render scouts harder to play by slower linked (non-europe based) people. Instead of rushing into changes what the management needs to do first is:

1. figure out if scouts are still played as frequently as they were before ... if so ... changes are fine if not

2. verify if the distributions of connections (europe/non-europe) among classes is the same is comparable.

This, if possible, would provide important information to determine if our perceptions are correct. Moreover, it should provide administration with evidence that they might have made a mistake, making one class un-playable for significant group of players.

For the record, scouts should be played as before OR escape made as effective as flee.

[Edvard]

Now, returning to the issue:

In my opinion, the actual consequence of the changes has been to render scouts harder to play by slower linked (non-europe based) people. Instead of rushing into changes what the management needs to do first is:

1. figure out if scouts are still played as frequently as they were before ... if so ... changes are fine if not

2. verify if the distributions of connections (europe/non-europe) among classes is the same is comparable.

This, if possible, would provide important information to determine if our perceptions are correct. Moreover, it should provide administration with evidence that they might have made a mistake, making one class un-playable for significant group of players.

For the record, scouts should be played as before OR escape made as effective as flee.

Yes it has made scouts harder to play for slower linked people, but I dont see a problem with that. Not because I am fast linked but because while scouts were easy to play for slower linked people, they were ridiculously easy to play for fast linked people. When I say easy to play I dont mean easy to get kills with, we have the one-stab kills but these changes didn't change that, I mean they were easy to survive with, sneaking out of any bottleneck and closable, hiding in open fields. I have seen this as a problem both when hunting thieves, and when playing my own thief, laughing at how easy it is. Many people with poor link has been succesful playing other classes than scouts, so don't give me that

Edit: When I say I don't see a problem with it, I dont mean to point at slow-linked people and say "fuck you", but rather that means of surviving is something I feel we should be moving away from rather than support. It's easy enough without sneak if you ask me.

[crackle]

I agree that surviving should be hard if you are wounded and being actively chased. However, I'd actually like to see an improvement in the power of sneak/hide, as long as you haven't been fighting recently. By that I mean being able to sneak into Bree relatively safely as a darkie (for example). Once you are discovered, that should be just as dangerous as it is now, of course. But until then, you could see who's wounded, who's mounting up for battle, etc.

On the other hand, any improved hiding ability should be balanced by a toning down/removal of backstab. There should be a way for scouts to be able to melee effectively, such a Rogon's 'circling' idea.

[crackle]

What some of you have been getting at is that fighting in light equipment (not talking casters here) is suicide. If the Fellowship had fought in Balin's tomb armoured as they were (plain eq mostly, no shields) against the orcs (mail, spears, more numerous) in a mume setting, they would have been slaughtered.

One of the purposes of armour is to protect you in a large battle against random blows. Armour matters less when you're fighting a single opponent, and is sometimes a hindrance. That's why it's believable that the Fellowship survived several battles with no deaths and only a couple wounds, equipped as they were.

So imho, there should be little difference in fighting ability between a lightly armoured scout and a heavily armoured warrior, when fighting 1-on-1. Where warriors should be more effective is in leading others, protecting casters, and surviving in larger battles.

[Finwë]

Yes it has made scouts harder to play for slower linked people, but I dont see a problem with that. Not because I am fast linked but because while scouts were easy to play for slower linked people, they were ridiculously easy to play for fast linked people. When I say easy to play I dont mean easy to get kills with, we have the one-stab kills but these changes didn't change that, I mean they were easy to survive with, sneaking out of any bottleneck and closable, hiding in open fields. I have seen this as a problem both when hunting thieves, and when playing my own thief, laughing at how easy it is. Many people with poor link has been succesful playing other classes than scouts, so don't give me that

Edit: When I say I don't see a problem with it, I dont mean to point at slow-linked people and say "fuck you", but rather that means of surviving is something I feel we should be moving away from rather than support. It's easy enough without sneak if you ask me.

Scouts should be the easiest class to survive with though. They are *scouts* afterall. That means they are trained in the twin arts of approaching without being seen and escaping / fleeing faster and further than their enemies when they are seen. That is their raison d'etre (reason for being/existing). They go in, usually without backup, *because* they can get out again. By 'in', I don't mean into a closable, but into a large group of enemies, even raiding parties if they are extremely brave. That is how scouts should be.

Having said that, I think the changes to flush, search, reveal and track are probably good. But I haven't really had a chance to test them yet, so I'll reserve judgement for now. And escape certainly needed a massive upgrade. I'm not sure whether it is good enough yet though. (Again, haven't had an opportunity to test. Need testmume!) Where are scouts supposed to get the pracs from though? Mine already didn't have the pracs for envenom, steal or maxing various other thief skills... And the nosneak affect is not right how it is (have tested this).

[Azazello]

Fak dat shit! They changed the spells messages!
Ma client not working!

My class is not broken and useless, tho i haven't tried it yet.
i qwit! Naw!

[Caerroil]

Why should scouts be able to max all available class skills? No other class can do that. That said scouts can max more skills than any other class can, so I'd hardly say that they lack pracs, now they might be more on the level with other classes in that regard.

Why should scouts be the easiest class to survive with? I agree that they should be able to do things and survive that no other class can, like scouting enemy groups and possibly enemy strongholds. However just because something should be possible to do for someone doesn't mean that it should be easy, which was what scouts were. They were just way too easy to live with in almost any situation where you had some rooms to move around in. (Scouts sneaking around and hiding in small indoors rooms and still being more or less impossible to reveal was just plain silly, that it was/is so in forest rooms is much more reasonable.)

[bok]

Hey, changes are good, but hmm fix some useless skills first. Like:

Kick.
Charge.

And other alike skills spells...

[Finwë]

Why should scouts be able to max all available class skills? No other class can do that. That said scouts can max more skills than any other class can, so I'd hardly say that they lack pracs, now they might be more on the level with other classes in that regard.

Scouts can't max all available class skills, or at least they can't if they want a playable character, and I'm not suggesting that be changed. But scouts basically have to practice certain skills to the max or very high. With, for example, a warrior, you have a lot more flexibility. Two-handed or rescue or endurance or parry don't NOT work if they are not practiced to the max. If scouts have yet another skill they need to practice to the max for it to be effective - escape - and they absolutely need to have it to be effective (like sneak) I just don't know where the pracs will come from. Sacrificing dodge or parry is going to make them worse off against warriors and mobs. Sacrificing endurance is... (you get the idea). So, if escape is going to become yet another must-have skill for scouts, they _do_ need to be compensated in some way. Of course, if it isn't then they don't. I'm withholding judgement.

Why should scouts be the easiest class to survive with? I agree that they should be able to do things and survive that no other class can, like scouting enemy groups and possibly enemy strongholds. However just because something should be possible to do for someone doesn't mean that it should be easy, which was what scouts were. They were just way too easy to live with in almost any situation where you had some rooms to move around in.

Why should warriors be the best buffers? Why should mages do the most damage? Er, because that's what they do. Scouts avoid getting hit one way or another. Hence, sometimes, they survive when outnumbered. If they cannot avoid getting hit (because they are trapped or being spammed down by some fast-linkers or run out of moves), they die extremely quickly. (Perhaps faster than any other class, against sufficient firepower.) You make it sound like scouts were easy, but if scouts were unbalanced before the change, why were there only a few scout warlords? It was pretty well balanced actually. That's not to say that changes shouldn't have been made, but they should have tried to be neutral when added together. (And I still expect that was the intention and will be fixed soonish.)

(Scouts sneaking around and hiding in small indoors rooms and still being more or less impossible to reveal was just plain silly, that it was/is so in forest rooms is much more reasonable.)

What are you talking about? If you can't reveal someone hidden in an indoors room, there is something room with _your_ character, not the scout! (Hint: If you want to find something, it helps to have search practiced! )

[Razoor]

Finwe, Caerroil obviously doesn't play much scout so dont blame him for not knowing how it works

Anyone who claims that 'scouts can easily hide in a closeable with a few rooms and survive forever' has clearly never tried.
It's practically impossible to even land a hide quick in less than 5 rooms if your opponent isn't terrible, and even if you manage you will get revealed almost instantly because hide quick is not very powerful. I have NEVER managed to hide in a closeable with a few rooms and survive for long, EVER, and it's not for lack of trying, it just doesn't work.

Finwe also made very good points about scouts being FORCED to max skills. Warriors dont even need more than ~15 pracs in their weaponskills and they will still be up to par with a maxed weaponskill (-~2ob). Mages dont need maxed anything either, combos dont need (or get) maxed anything. But, thieves HAVE to max both Sneak(23), Backstab (23). I have even considered dropping hide on my scout because i have other things i want to spend pracs on

[Snarp]

I have to agree with the people who are saying scouts need to max a skill to make them work properly. Having 101% sneak (combo warscout) becomes so tedious (in pk and xp) I changed back to normal scout.

But if you changed that, where would scouts put their pracs? (don't say escape, shh)

It's pretty damn easy to reveal a character who has hidden quick in an indoors room, the problem with revealing them is that the sneaker usually relocates before he has been revealed and the hunter is usually unaware. I actually think the nosneak for a few seconds after flee was was partially introduced to stop this from happening.

The problem with making changes is people always compare the top end scout players (i'm talking eq, experience, lvls) with the average joe player and it's not realistic. Another problem might be that the gap between average scouts and top end scouts is so large that people forget about the majority and focus on the few. I can't really think of any top end scout character that has been played consistantly for a long time in the last year (except Ugurz god it must have been boring) and been a pain. Other scout players tend to play and take breaks and arnt really annoying.

After the scout changes I havn't revealed more than 1 scout player. What scouts have been playing alot lately? I believe the warlord scouts are dropping down, but are there others who are going to break on?